Political relations between UK-EU

[bluethrunthru]

Of course we need more immigration to fill this gap but that's because how many kids nowadays aspire to be or will even consider being a HGV driver?

The Govt's answer to the industry is train more Brits to drive lorries !! No suggestion as to where these brits are to come from. I have seen reports that drivers of bin wagons are leaving to drive in haulage - all that means is your bins might not get emptied as Councils urge bin men and rat catchers to become HGV qualified to drive the bin wagons. No mention of how they get fast tracked through the back log of outstanding tests of course thats out of the Govts hands ( like they have no control over the DSA and DVLA ) and anyway its just shifting the deckchairs on the Titanic - if bin men become the drivers then where do we replace the bin men from? Your assertion that we need more people is spot on - today I see food processors want the Govt to deploy prisoners ( unpaid ) to process meat !! I mean FFS what is going on?

 

[inbetween]

The Govt's answer to the industry is train more Brits to drive lorries !! No suggestion as to where these brits are to come from. I have seen reports that drivers of bin wagons are leaving to drive in haulage - all that means is your bins might not get emptied as Councils urge bin men and rat catchers to become HGV qualified to drive the bin wagons. No mention of how they get fast tracked through the back log of outstanding tests of course thats out of the Govts hands ( like they have no control over the DSA and DVLA ) and anyway its just shifting the deckchairs on the Titanic - if bin men become the drivers then where do we replace the bin men from? Your assertion that we need more people is spot on - today I see food processors want the Govt to deploy prisoners ( unpaid ) to process meat !! I mean FFS what is going on?

I have no idea, it clearly isn't about pay because I just had a quick look on Indeed and there's no HGV jobs on less than £30k, some are past £40k! I'm half tempted myself!

We apparently have a shortage of plumbers and tradesmen as well but I don't know any poor tradesmen that's for sure. The landscaper who did our garden a few months ago charged us £3k for 4 days work and he was the cheapest.

I still think that universities are the biggest problem. It's a huge con that kids think that going to university is somehow associated with better prosperity or a better life when it just isn't true at all.

Our apprentices have never been to university and they're on £24k 3 years after starting their apprenticeship. All a university student gets in those same 3 years is £50k of debt and then they're thrown back out on the street.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I have no idea, it clearly isn't about pay because I just had a quick look on Indeed and there's no HGV jobs on less than £30k, some are past £40k! I'm half tempted myself!

We apparently have a shortage of plumbers and tradesmen as well but I don't know any poor tradesmen that's for sure. The landscaper who did our garden a few months ago charged us £3k for 4 days work and he was the cheapest.

I still think that universities are the biggest problem. It's a huge con that kids think that going to university is somehow associated with better prosperity or a better life when it just isn't true at all.

Our apprentices have never been to university and they're on £24k 3 years after starting their apprenticeship. All a university student gets in those same 3 years is £50k of debt and then they're thrown back out on the street.

I think the university drive, and the losing of the polytechnic aspect, has had an effect, even if it's just expectations and looking down on some jobs.

Some things do need university etc, but to be an electrician, you need a more hands-on option, as you suggest re apprentices. The govts here have occasionally advocated them, but I've no idea if there is anything resembling a plan in place and properly set up and funded.

There is also catch-up from changes in some areas. The 'Polish plumber' concept where they came over because they could make a lot more money, got a generally very good reputation when compared to British ones, and undercut costs; then after a while, the exchange rate changed significantly, and it became less worthwhile, as well as Poland's economy picking up noticeably - so they went home. After that, it's taken a while to fill the holes left, which loops back round to access/apprenticeships.

 

[BobKowalski]

The reality is that we don't need more people, we need more people who are willing to do the jobs that most people aren't.

I walked past my local the other day and they have a sign up saying bar staff wanted, 20hrs a week. Bare in mind you have to be 18 to work behind a bar.... Who is going to do this job? Kids at 18 are all off to uni in 2 weeks and who else is going to work 20hrs a week on minimum wage? You can't exactly pay the rent on that money.

This whole thing about talent shortages is rubbish because the graduate market is completely saturated and not the other way round.

Of course we need more immigration to fill this gap but that's because how many kids nowadays aspire to be or will even consider being a HGV driver? The bottom has fallen out and for the indigenous folk there's no respect or dignity anymore in unskilled trade and that's the problem.

Yes, and invariably these jobs are supplemented by immigrant labour. We have always imported labour. Ireland, the West Indies, Eastern Europe.

There is a shortage of labour. HGV, hospitality sector, meat processing - where the association is asking for more prison labour to fill the gaps

“Much of the food industry is facing a recruitment crisis,” said Goodger. “The advice we have received from the Home Office is that the UK’s domestic labour force should take priority. However hard we and many of the members have tried, staffing remains a challenge.”

The Govt and the like can bang on about the domestic labour force until it’s blue in the face, but it ain’t changing how things work, anymore than employing Ian Botham is going to get goods through EU customs any faster.

The supply chains and systems that keep the country running are struggling to cope and are slowly degrading, hell, I can’t even get a fucking chicken in a roasting bag from fucking ASDA.

The problem with people voting for stupid ideas, is well, they are fucking stupid. Putting up trade barriers, increasing costs, imposing burdensome red tape and cutting off vital labour supply is and was fucking stupid. Five years on and people still can’t grasp this fact.

 

[BobKowalski]

I have no idea, it clearly isn't about pay because I just had a quick look on Indeed and there's no HGV jobs on less than £30k, some are past £40k! I'm half tempted myself!

We apparently have a shortage of plumbers and tradesmen as well but I don't know any poor tradesmen that's for sure. The landscaper who did our garden a few months ago charged us £3k for 4 days work and he was the cheapest.

I still think that universities are the biggest problem. It's a huge con that kids think that going to university is somehow associated with better prosperity or a better life when it just isn't true at all.

Our apprentices have never been to university and they're on £24k 3 years after starting their apprenticeship. All a university student gets in those same 3 years is £50k of debt and then they're thrown back out on the street.

And how many parents dont’t want their kids to go to University, get the best education they can, and get the best start in life?

Who on here is telling their kid, ‘look you have the grades to go to University, get a degree, and enjoy the experience, but son, have you considered sacking that off and driving an HGV?’

 

[west didsblue]

And how many parents dont’t want their kids to go to University, get the best education they can, and get the best start in life?

Who on here is telling their kid, ‘look you have the grades to go to University, get a degree, and enjoy the experience, but son, have you considered sacking that off and driving an HGV?’

Funnily enough, my youngest just graduated with a decent degree from a good uni, and due to the graduate job market being extremely challenging, briefly looked at what it would take to be an HGV driver, and frankly the drawbacks made it hugely unappealing as well as it being a total waste of his knowledge gained from uni.

 

[metalblue]

This assumes we have the labour to train and fill these gaps. Like most European countries we have a labour shortage. Previously, newly accessioned countries helped fill the labour gap, but their economies have grown as a function of being in the Single Market and as recipients of EU funds, so people are now inclined to stay put. Romania is increasing its non-EU immigration quotas to fill gaps.

The UK situation is exacerbated by Brexit, plugging into a Europe wide network of supply chains helps mask the shortfalls, but the reality is the UK does not have enough people. Europe the same. Germany took in nearly a million refugees in 2015, largely assimilating them into the economy and that still isn’t enough.

The US depends on undocumented labour, while still screaming about it. The UK is in denial mode as is a lot of Europe when it comes to ‘outside migration’, but our economies and growth need people.

It’s a reality we are unwilling to face.

Your numbers are way off, Germany didn’t take 1m refugees in 2015, they took about 300k. The total number of refugees in Germany is 1.2m. Can you imagine trying to bring in 1m in a single year? You’d need to increase education capacity by something like what? 100 schools? and we’d need the equivalent of say 6 new hospitals? To even begin to provide these people with their basic needs. No country could really do a million, you’d fail your existing population and you’d fail those you are seeking to help.

Anyroads the issue isn’t available labour for the UK but either unwilling or untrained labour. A HGV driver can earn best part of £40k a year with a bit of overtime. I appreciate it’s not the most social of occupations and it’s not for everyone but we have around 1.5m unemployed people so there is a pool of labour there and we only need about 3% of them to be happy to become lorry drivers. However if I was unemployed I’d have fuck all chance of paying the £3,500 to get my HGV licence and this is where the government needs to step in IMHO.

Your basic premise that seems to suggest that we should bring in refugees to “plug the gap” is further flawed. Firstly there is practically zero chance they could arrive and work as a HGV driver, they’ll need a UK driving licence plus the HGV entitlement, language will be an issue that they will first need to address, it’s simply not a quick solution to an immediate problem. Back to the German example, they still have unemployment at around 50% for those 1.2m refugees, at best it’s a slow burning solution and worst you create a new section of underclass.

However we should take a much better share of refugees but not on the pretext that it solves any of our problems, but because it’s the right thing to do.

 

[metalblue]

And how many parents dont’t want their kids to go to University, get the best education they can, and get the best start in life?

Who on here is telling their kid, ‘look you have the grades to go to University, get a degree, and enjoy the experience, but son, have you considered sacking that off and driving an HGV?’

The snobbery in this post is breathtaking. Do you spit on truck drivers when you see them?

 

[BobKowalski]

Your numbers are way off, Germany didn’t take 1m refugees in 2015, they took about 300k. The total number of refugees in Germany is 1.2m. Can you imagine trying to bring in 1m in a single year? You’d need to increase education capacity by something like what? 100 schools? and we’d need the equivalent of say 6 new hospitals? To even begin to provide these people with their basic needs. No country could really do a million, you’d fail your existing population and you’d fail those you are seeking to help.

Anyroads the issue isn’t available labour for the UK but either unwilling or untrained labour. A HGV driver can earn best part of £40k a year with a bit of overtime. I appreciate it’s not the most social of occupations and it’s not for everyone but we have around 1.5m unemployed people so there is a pool of labour there and we only need about 3% of them to be happy to become lorry drivers. However if I was unemployed I’d have fuck all chance of paying the £3,500 to get my HGV licence and this is where the government needs to step in IMHO.

Your basic premise that seems to suggest that we should bring in refugees to “plug the gap” is further flawed. Firstly there is practically zero chance they could arrive and work as a HGV driver, they’ll need a UK driving licence plus the HGV entitlement, language will be an issue that they will first need to address, it’s simply not a quick solution to an immediate problem. Back to the German example, they still have unemployment at around 50% for those 1.2m refugees, at best it’s a slow burning solution and worst you create a new section of underclass.

However we should take a much better share of refugees but not on the pretext that it solves any of our problems, but because it’s the right thing to do.

I was referring to Merkel’s open border pledge in 2015 with respect to Syrian refugees which did create problems given the numbers.

‘In the end, nearly a million people were to apply for asylum in Germany in 2015 alone. The interior minister at the time was Thomas de Maizière: He later admitted that there had been "moments when things got of control." His successor, Horst Seehofer, went even further. For him, there had been a breakdown of law and order that he described as "the rule of injustice." There were several occasions when differences over refuge policy threatened to break apart Merkel's coalition government of her own CDU/CSU conservatives and the Social Democrats (SPD).’ @ Die Welt.

It was a humanitarian gesture that Germany struggled to deal with, but eventually did so. There were many issues, tensions as well as a lot of success stories.

 

[BobKowalski]

The snobbery in this post is breathtaking. Do you spit on truck drivers when you see them?

Thanks, and not recently. Pandemic and all that.

So, hands up all those on here who dissuaded their progeny from University and encouraged them to take up long distance trucking, or a career in meat packing?

 

[The perfect fumble]

Thanks, and not recently. Pandemic and all that.

So, hands up all those on here who dissuaded their progeny from University and encouraged them to take up long distance trucking, or a career in meat packing?

You need to watch this....

 

[BobKowalski]

You need to watch this....

I bet he doesn‘t drive a truck.

As a society matures, becomes more wealthy, its aspirations increase and goals become higher and each generation wants more and better things for itself.

So, how many people on here are looking to dissuade, or have dissuaded, their kids from going to university in favour of driving a truck?

 

[metalblue]

I bet he doesn‘t drive a truck.

As a society matures, becomes more wealthy, its aspirations increase and goals become higher and each generation wants more and better things for itself.

So, how many people on here are looking to dissuade, or have dissuaded, their kids from going to university in favour of driving a truck?

It’s a ridiculous question and you know it. My daughter toyed with the idea of becoming a makeup artist, my only comment was for her to be the best makeup artist she could be. If she’d have said I want to be a truck driver I’d have said be the best truck driver you can be.

The fact you see these, or certain jobs in general, as less worthy careers and not something for people to aspire to do speaks of a sense of entitlement and all that is wrong in this country*. Lad I know, pilot for TUI, pandemic hits and he becomes a delivery driver for a supermarket - none of this “it’s beneath me” bollocks that comes through from your post.

*well maybe not all that’s wrong with this country….

 

[inbetween]

And how many parents dont’t want their kids to go to University, get the best education they can, and get the best start in life?

Who on here is telling their kid, ‘look you have the grades to go to University, get a degree, and enjoy the experience, but son, have you considered sacking that off and driving an HGV?’

The whole, "goto university to enjoy the experience" is the crux of the entire problem. University should not be about an experience, it's about getting an education. If you are going to university for an experience then you'd be better going travelling or something, it's far cheaper and at least you get out and about.

I'm not saying that kids should aspire to be HGV drivers but what about skilled trades and other jobs? None of these require a university education and I can bet my house that you will earn more money going down that route. Only a handful of university students go on to become nuclear scientists or whatever. That's why for every graduate job there's perhaps 100 applicants.

I wouldn't hesitate to push my kids down this route because I've been to university and I honestly believe now it was one of the worst decisions I ever made for myself. I wasted 3-4 years of my life in my early 20's not working and not doing anything and I'm even now paying £150 a month for it.

And we wonder why kids can't afford houses?

 

[BobKowalski]

It’s a ridiculous question and you know it. My daughter toyed with the idea of becoming a makeup artist, my only comment was for her to be the best makeup artist she could be. If she’d have said I want to be a truck driver I’d have said be the best truck driver you can be.

The fact you see these, or certain jobs in general, as less worthy careers and not something for people to aspire to do speaks of a sense of entitlement and all that is wrong in this country*. Lad I know, pilot for TUI, pandemic hits and he becomes a delivery driver for a supermarket - none of this “it’s beneath me” bollocks that comes through from your post.

*well maybe not all that’s wrong with this country….

It is a question of aspiration. Your daughter aspired, or did aspire to be a MUA (as it’s known in showbiz), and if the fee for the training was £3.5k, no doubt the money would have been found, just as people who aspire to go to university find much larger fees.

If people aspire to be a truck driver than finding the fee will be less of an obstacle and I’m happy for them. Trouble is, no one aspires be a truck driver. They aspire to be doctors, nurses, journalists, YouTube stars. They may end up working in the local Estate Agents and find they enjoy it, but no one is aspiring to become an Estate Agent either. But office life can be fun, it’s regular hours and you are not having to take a shit by the roadside.

Oh, is it okay to take the piss out of Estate Agents or is that more ‘beneath me‘ snootiness?

Actually, I’ll change it, as I started out as an Insurance Broker after school, and no one is aspiring to be one of those either.

And no, I didn’t go to university, but I am happy and delighted for as many youngsters to do so, dream big and not require them to be conscripted in as emergency lorry drivers. Unless of course that is their big dream, in which case they are in luck.

 

[bluethrunthru]

In terms of truckers what nobody seems to have grasped is its the work that has changed and made it unattractive to drivers already in there - camera's in cabs, route changes, strict time limits imposed, scrutiny of drivers style etc etc - maybe when possible new entrants hear all that its just not attractive.
I have friends who have switched to working from home and have switched employers because their existing employers installed spy ware on the systems so their keystrokes could be monitored and and via the camera they can watch what you were doing or had done. Interestingly if work in the office and have a chat by the coffee machine or go for a lengthy shit nothing gets said but employers are starting to micro manage individuals. Some people object to being told they are going to their own loo and making their own coffee using their own coffee and their power too many times. Odd eh?

 

[The perfect fumble]

I bet he doesn‘t drive a truck.

As a society matures, becomes more wealthy, its aspirations increase and goals become higher and each generation wants more and better things for itself.

So, how many people on here are looking to dissuade, or have dissuaded, their kids from going to university in favour of driving a truck?

Swerve.

 

[bluejon]

You need to watch this....

outstanding book as well

 

[bluethrunthru]

It is a question of aspiration. Your daughter aspired, or did aspire to be a MUA (as it’s known in showbiz), and if the fee for the training was £3.5k, no doubt the money would have been found, just as people who aspire to go to university find much larger fees.

If people aspire to be a truck driver than finding the fee will be less of an obstacle and I’m happy for them. Trouble is, no one aspires be a truck driver. They aspire to be doctors, nurses, journalists, YouTube stars. They may end up working in the local Estate Agents and find they enjoy it, but no one is aspiring to become an Estate Agent either. But office life can be fun, it’s regular hours and you are not having to take a shit by the roadside.

Oh, is it okay to take the piss out of Estate Agents or is that more ‘beneath me‘ snootiness?

Actually, I’ll change it, as I started out as an Insurance Broker after school, and no one is aspiring to be one of those either.

And no, I didn’t go to university, but I am happy and delighted for as many youngsters to do so, dream big and not require them to be conscripted in as emergency lorry drivers. Unless of course that is their big dream, in which case they are in luck.

I remember a few years back - think it was Arriva buses in Stoke were being criticised for hiring drivers from Poland because there were no qualified drivers locally. I always thought the answer was for Arriva, or the UK state, to pay for training - it could have been part of a loan scheme like they do for students and it would have been returned out of wages.

 

[East Level 2]

Truss appoints Ian Botham as UK Trade Envoy to Australia as the Whitehall farce gathers pace.................!!!!!

Truss: Ian, what do you know about international trade?
Botham: Fuck all.
Truss: No problem, you get the gig cos at least the Aussies know who you are.

When Gove said "People are fed up with experts" during the referendum he really was predicting the future. Dumbing down by the government matches dumbing down by the BBC.