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Octavian said:
England just means “Land of the Angles”. English is just how Anglo Saxons started to define themselves, there’s not really a difference, it’s just how language evolved through time.

It is true what you say about the mainland Europe, I saw something online that said English people are more closely linked to Frisian people than we are some areas of Wales. No idea if that’s specifically true but it’s interesting and we definitely do share a lot of DNA from areas where Germanic tribes used to be, across the mainland.

Culturally is important too and I want us to retain our culture. I have no problem having other cultures in my area, I live in Oldham and there’s a good mix, but my only point that it’s reasonable to want ours to be the most prominent one, which it is.

A couple of my pals have retired and now live on the Costa Del Sol, I find what Brits have done over there a little unfair in some areas and a native Spaniard told me as much last time I visited my mate.

Do you think the Spanish fella is justified in being pissed off at Brits there?
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The key point is that people's genetic origin is irrelevant, it's a cultural thing.

We live in a country that has evolved culturally to what it is now and it is forever changing and evolving, and it is only natural to not want it to become too alien too quickly. However we have absorbed wave after wave of immigrants that have all learned to integrate with the existing population to a lesser or greater extent. Yet most have still retained elements of their imported culture that we don't appear to have a problem with, and some elements of that imported culture have become mainstream in English life, such as our taste for Indian, Italian, Chinese and many other cuisines. There's absolutely no reason why we can't successfully absorb another wave of immigrants of which many will absorb our culture and some of their's will rub off on us.

Using nativeness (if that's a word) and lineage as a measure is irrelevant, pointless and counterproductive, and has never been part of how this country has evolved over the centuries (until Brexit).
 
west didsblue said:
The key point is that people's genetic origin is irrelevant, it's a cultural thing.

We live in a country that has evolved culturally to what it is now and it is forever changing and evolving, and it is only natural to not want it to become too alien too quickly. However we have absorbed wave after wave of immigrants that have all learned to integrate with the existing population to a lesser or greater extent. Yet most have still retained elements of their imported culture that we don't appear to have a problem with, and some elements of that imported culture have become mainstream in English life, such as our taste for Indian, Italian, Chinese and many other cuisines. There's absolutely no reason why we can't successfully absorb another wave of immigrants of which many will absorb our culture and some of their's will rub off on us.

Using nativeness (if that's a word) and lineage as a measure is irrelevant, pointless and counterproductive, and has never been part of how this country has evolved over the centuries (until Brexit).
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Mass immigration is a recent phenomenon in my lifetime, never mind in the history of the country. There will be more immigration post Brexit than when I was a lad.

Nevertheless I agree with a chunk of what you say, importing parts of other cultures and people is great. I just don’t think, say for example, we should be allowing immigration from India to be that high that there are more Indians in the country than English people and their culture becomes the most dominant.

I think it’s reasonable to not want that to happen but be grateful and pleased that we do have Indians here and their culture.

I am surprised I’ve got opposition to that view but hey ho everyone has an opinion.

Lineage is important, it’s good to trace where you’ve come from and what your ancestors did… whilst retaining some of their culture and identity. This happens all over the world and I’m fascinated how tribes in Africa have been behaving similarly for thousands of years.
 
Octavian said:
Why would that be acceptable in any form of normal conversation?
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I dunno, why not ask the bloke who brought this whole fucking nonsense up?

That’s you, by the way.

I reckon I can trace back 150 years of English lineage on on my fathers side. Is this enough to move to Oldham? I don't want to be seen driving up the non-native share of the population. Will you want documents as proof?
 
BobKowalski said:
I dunno, why not ask the bloke who brought this whole fucking nonsense up?

That’s you, by the way.

I reckon I can trace back 150 years of English lineage on on my fathers side. Is this enough to move to Oldham? I don't want to be seen driving up the non-native share of the population. Will you want documents as proof?
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Why are you so rude?

I didn’t bring it up, the other fella sent the link to the article and said it was racist.

I’ve said repeatedly times I welcome immigration, just that it’s reasonable to not want to be a minority in the area you’re native too.
 
Octavian said:
Why are you so rude?

I didn’t bring it up, the other fella sent the link to the article and said it was racist.

I’ve said repeatedly times I welcome immigration, just that it’s reasonable to not want to be a minority in the area you’re native too.
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In order.

It‘s a gift.

It was.

I rest my case.
 
Octavian said:
Mass immigration is a recent phenomenon in my lifetime, never mind in the history of the country. There will be more immigration post Brexit than when I was a lad.

Nevertheless I agree with a chunk of what you say, importing parts of other cultures and people is great. I just don’t think, say for example, we should be allowing immigration from India to be that high that there are more Indians in the country than English people and their culture becomes the most dominant.

I think it’s reasonable to not want that to happen but be grateful and pleased that we do have Indians here and their culture.

I am surprised I’ve got opposition to that view but hey ho everyone has an opinion.

Lineage is important, it’s good to trace where you’ve come from and what your ancestors did… whilst retaining some of their culture and identity. This happens all over the world and I’m fascinated how tribes in Africa have been behaving similarly for thousands of years.
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@bluethrunthru has beaten me to it.
Mass immigration has happened for centuries not just in recent years, and the characteristics of some areas have often changed due to immigration - usually the same poorer areas time after time. Cheetham Hill for example has been Irish, Jewish and is now predominantly Indian/Pakistani. Moss Side has been largely Caribbean but the African population has now grown there significantly. Rusholme is more Middle Eastern than South Asian these days etc. Then as those communities assimilate and become more successful they spread out further and could end up being your neighbours, and by then they usually have adopted enough of the host culture to fit in fine with the majority, the exceptions being people who are fixated on an imaginary past that never existed. Worrying about being swamped with migrants from one country is foolish because history shows that every time there has been mass immigration, long term the country has benefitted.
 
west didsblue said:
@bluethrunthru has beaten me to it.
Mass immigration has happened for centuries not just in recent years, and the characteristics of some areas have often changed due to immigration - usually the same poorer areas time after time. Cheetham Hill for example has been Irish, Jewish and is now predominantly Indian/Pakistani. Moss Side has been largely Caribbean but the African population has now grown there significantly. Rusholme is more Middle Eastern than South Asian these days etc. Then as those communities assimilate and become more successful they spread out further and could end up being your neighbours, and by then they usually have adopted enough of the host culture to fit in fine with the majority, the exceptions being people who are fixated on an imaginary past that never existed. Worrying about being swamped with migrants from one country is foolish because history shows that every time there has been mass immigration, long term the country has benefitted.
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Saying mass immigration has always happened just isn’t true. It’s happened in waves certainly but the scale of those arriving from the 1990s onwards had never been done, not since invasions in pre medieval times.

I live in Oldham, I already have Pakistani neighbours and I get on with them fine. I just wouldn’t want the English population of Oldham to sink to minority status. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

F266057F-9D6B-4675-A8D6-1E5B936410E1.png
 
Octavian said:
Mass immigration is a recent phenomenon in my lifetime, never mind in the history of the country. There will be more immigration post Brexit than when I was a lad.

Nevertheless I agree with a chunk of what you say, importing parts of other cultures and people is great. I just don’t think, say for example, we should be allowing immigration from India to be that high that there are more Indians in the country than English people and their culture becomes the most dominant.

I think it’s reasonable to not want that to happen but be grateful and pleased that we do have Indians here and their culture.

I am surprised I’ve got opposition to that view but hey ho everyone has an opinion.

Lineage is important, it’s good to trace where you’ve come from and what your ancestors did… whilst retaining some of their culture and identity. This happens all over the world and I’m fascinated how tribes in Africa have been behaving similarly for thousands of years.
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In your lifetime maybe but not in the history of the country. Norwich's population may have been a third "strangers" centuries ago.
 
Octavian said:
Mass immigration
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Define Mass?
Octavian said:
Nevertheless I agree with a chunk of what you say, importing parts of other cultures and people is great. I just don’t think, say for example, we should be allowing immigration from India to be that high that there are more Indians in the country than English people and their culture becomes the most dominant.
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2.5% of the population is of Indian heritage circa August 2020 according to UK GOV stats.. That would mean we would have to allow around 30 million Indians to arrive here before they became equal in population to white British. You are also assuming that Indians here do not assimilate into British culture. As British culture was transferred to the Indian sub continent during colonialism they are more likely to have afternoon tea than the British.
Octavian said:
I think it’s reasonable to not want that to happen but be grateful and pleased that we do have Indians here and their culture.
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It is reasonable to not want the nation to become subverted to another culture, or for as you describe native British/English to become a minority, the figures suggest this is not happening, nor is it likely to happen.
Octavian said:
I am surprised I’ve got opposition to that view but hey ho everyone has an opinion.
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Education sometimes causes surprises.
Octavian said:
Lineage is important, it’s good to trace where you’ve come from and what your ancestors did
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History is important, it should in theory stop us from making the same mistakes all over again.
Octavian said:
… whilst retaining some of their culture and identity.
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We do, how else do we know about Nelson, Wellington, etc etc, but culture is not constant, it is evolves. The culture of 2021 is very different to the culture of 1971 which was very different to 1671 and so on.
Octavian said:
This happens all over the world and I’m fascinated how tribes in Africa have been behaving similarly for thousands of years.
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You are describing communities that are insular, due the nature of Empire and colonialism the British have always been a nation that is outwards looking and welcoming to foreign cultures, think how going for a curry is now acceptable as a cultural norm.

I am in favour of controlled immigration, what i am not in favour of is the skewing of the debate so that we hear words like "mass" "swamped" "illegal" etc as it does sour the debate and the myths become accepted, one being the idiotic "great replacement theory." It also harms the immigration we do need as a nation, we have a negative borth rate and an aging population, if all immigration is frowned upon, basically as a nation in time we will die off and all those people claiming lineages back to William the Conqureors chief cook will find we have no nation left.
 
Rascal said:
Define Mass?

2.5% of the population is of Indian heritage circa August 2020 according to UK GOV stats.. That would mean we would have to allow around 30 million Indians to arrive here before they became equal in population to white British. You are also assuming that Indians here do not assimilate into British culture. As British culture was transferred to the Indian sub continent during colonialism they are more likely to have afternoon tea than the British.

It is reasonable to not want the nation to become subverted to another culture, or for as you describe native British/English to become a minority, the figures suggest this is not happening, nor is it likely to happen.

Education sometimes causes surprises.

History is important, it should in theory stop us from making the same mistakes all over again.

We do, how else do we know about Nelson, Wellington, etc etc, but culture is not constant, it is evolves. The culture of 2021 is very different to the culture of 1971 which was very different to 1671 and so on.

You are describing communities that are insular, due the nature of Empire and colonialism the British have always been a nation that is outwards looking and welcoming to foreign cultures, think how going for a curry is now acceptable as a cultural norm.

I am in favour of controlled immigration, what i am not in favour of is the skewing of the debate so that we hear words like "mass" "swamped" "illegal" etc as it does sour the debate and the myths become accepted, one being the idiotic "great replacement theory." It also harms the immigration we do need as a nation, we have a negative borth rate and an aging population, if all immigration is frowned upon, basically as a nation in time we will die off and all those people claiming lineages back to William the Conqureors chief cook will find we have no nation left.
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I’ve no idea how to arrange this post to make it clear to answer so I’ll just do it:

Mass means a large number of people or objects crowded together according to Oxford Dictionary.

I never said we were close to becoming a minority nationwide, I just said being concerned about it in certain areas, such as the areas in London where only 20% of children had both parents that were born here, isn’t racist.

I used Indians as they are the largest immigrant ethnic group in the UK.

I agree culture changes but it also stays the same in particular subsections, retaining tradition is important and the good parts we can have from others, such as curry (who doesn’t love curry?) is great.

These places might be insular but it’s all to differing degrees, I’m not saying we should stay the same as we were 1000 years ago like they have, but we should preserve what we can, when it makes sense to do so and the public wishes to.

I never said swamped or illegal (although we should obviously do our best to safely stop immigrants risking their lives through unsafe means) but mass is a term that is accurate to describe the runaway numbers in the 00’s and 90’s. Net hundreds of thousands isn’t sustainable and was done in a way where certain areas had very high concentrations of numbers. It was done very poorly.

I agree, we should have steady immigration into the country but based on jobs and those who are in danger of where they are coming from. Thousands or tens of thousands, rather than hundreds of thousands is reasonable.
 
Octavian said:
I’ve no idea how to arrange this post to make it clear to answer so I’ll just do it:

Mass means a large number of people or objects crowded together according to Oxford Dictionary.

I never said we were close to becoming a minority nationwide, I just said being concerned about it in certain areas, such as the areas in London where only 20% of children had both parents that were born here, isn’t racist.

I used Indians as they are the largest immigrant ethnic group in the UK.

I agree culture changes but it also stays the same in particular subsections, retaining tradition is important and the good parts we can have from others, such as curry (who doesn’t love curry?) is great.

These places might be insular but it’s all to differing degrees, I’m not saying we should stay the same as we were 1000 years ago like they have, but we should preserve what we can, when it makes sense to do so and the public wishes to.

I never said swamped or illegal (although we should obviously do our best to safely stop immigrants risking their lives through unsafe means) but mass is a term that is accurate to describe the runaway numbers in the 00’s and 90’s. Net hundreds of thousands isn’t sustainable and was done in a way where certain areas had very high concentrations of numbers. It was done very poorly.

I agree, we should have steady immigration into the country but based on jobs and those who are in danger of where they are coming from. Thousands or tens of thousands, rather than hundreds of thousands is reasonable.
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So we are said to need 100k HGV drivers to make up for a shortfall. Rather than recruit 100k from around the world you think we should limit it to 10k because more than that makes some people feel uncomfortable?

I'll tell you what will make people feel uncomfortable it will be low or no fuel supplies to your filling station - no food so they go hungry - bins not being emptied because there are no drivers ?
 
bluethrunthru said:
So we are said to need 100k HGV drivers to make up for a shortfall. Rather than recruit 100k from around the world you think we should limit it to 10k because more than that makes some people feel uncomfortable?

I'll tell you what will make people feel uncomfortable it will be low or no fuel supplies to your filling station - no food so they go hungry - bins not being emptied because there are no drivers ?
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100k short of drivers, just in the UK?

Do you have an article or official statistics to prove that?

But let’s say you’re correct, and we need 100k drivers right now, then fast track visa applications for HGV drivers and get them in ASAP. Having a programme of work to import these workers is easier to manage and track than freedom of movement from a whole continent.
 
Octavian said:
100k short of drivers, just in the UK?

Do you have an article or official statistics to prove that?

But let’s say you’re correct, and we need 100k drivers right now, then fast track visa applications for HGV drivers and get them in ASAP. Having a programme of work to import these workers is easier to manage and track than freedom of movement from a whole continent.
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bluethrunthru said:
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Well bloody hell that’s a lot and fair play to you but as the website states, about 30,000 tests at least were cancelled to Covid last year and that’s the most significant reason for it, now there’s a backlog of those waiting to sit tests.

15,000 people returned to Eastern Europe last year so let’s allow 15,000 qualified drivers from around the world to come as a minimum and probably more to make up the shortfall.

Simple to regain the shortfall of those that left but with regards to Covid issues, money needs to be ploughed (no pun intended) into the industry for additional trainers and wages to make up for those lost to Covid.

I’m not sure how allowing 200,000 people from random occupational backgrounds in, will help the situation.
 
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