Political relations between UK-EU

[Saddleworth2]

Any potential market we trade with depends on how closely we align but it’s the UK’s decision to align or not, it’s not a rule or law we’re taking from a parliament in another country

yes...and the UK has chosen to mis align itself from its closest and biggest trading partner. What point are you trying to make?

Anyway, I can see this part of this website is a complete echo chamber and anyone who dares question anything, even if they didn’t vote leave, is hounded.

The funny thing is I haven’t even said Brexit was the right thing to do or a good idea and you’re all foaming at the mouth.

I suppose this is what the internet is like and I cannot be arsed wasting my time.

Top flounce. Kudos.

 

[west didsblue]

Name a single argument I’ve made in favour of Brexit

How about this?

Any potential market we trade with depends on how closely we align but it’s the UK’s decision to align or not, it’s not a rule or law we’re taking from a parliament in another country

Or maybe you were just saying that to provoke a discussion about a point you don’t agree with. A discussion that’s been had hundreds of times already in the run up to Brexit and is no longer relevant because we’ve left.

Now that’s strange.

 

[west didsblue]

I suspect its one of the old lot back flying under a flag of convenience

Cheese knob’s second account would be my guess.

 

[Rascal]

I understand people have concerns and Brexit has been handled badly by the Tories , but Brexit has put the Tories in a bind as well. One of the main reasons i came to the conclusion that leaving was the correct thing to do was I believe we had to break away from the Neo-Liberal orthodoxy of the EU, The Tories though are wedded to Neo-Liberal orthodoxy which is why they have made a dogs dinner of it. The EU had been moving increasingly in the direction of a social and economic model that prioritizes the imperatives of the market and of business profitability over the requirements of democratic equality and social solidarity. Democracy under capitalism is democracy to the extent that it corrects the outcomes of markets in an egalitarian direction. Economic liberalization disconnects democracy from the economy and that in itself explains why so many places that felt left behind voted to leave. They became disconnected from the Democratic process and felt powerless.

The EU concentrated on business and finance and never got around to organising an EU wide social model. That disenfranchised many people, they had no stake in the EU, if you have no stake in a system then that system is outside of your self interest.

We now have a chance to re-establish a social contract, Ironically it has taken a pandemic to show that it is possible to have a social contract and that there are in fact magic money trees, I hope the Left sees this and takes advantage for the good of the country, it has the chance now, will it take it, I am not so sure, because many people put the needs of capitalism before the needs of people. If you voted remain, that is you, you voted for the needs of capitalism, you voted against the needs of people and against the need for a renewal of a social contract. But hey Waitrose has no avocado's.

 

[Octavian]

yes...and the UK has chosen to mis align itself from its closest and biggest trading partner. What point are you trying to make?

Top flounce. Kudos.

Full of rude tossers on this page isn’t it.

I originally made the point that the Brexit argument should have been to sacrifice trade and the economy for more power transferred back from Brussels to London, that would have been the honest argument.

your weird mates jumped on that as a pro Brexit argument when it wasn’t.

You then claimed that us having to align with Brussels to trade with them is still us taking rules from there Parliament, I just said no it isn’t.

You see how conversations work when someone shifts the goalposts?

 

[west didsblue]

Full of rude tossers on this page isn’t it.

Why don't you fuck off then.
Bellend.

 

[Octavian]

How about this?

Or maybe you were just saying that to provoke a discussion about a point you don’t agree with. A discussion that’s been had hundreds of times already in the run up to Brexit and is no longer relevant because we’ve left.

Now that’s strange.

“Provoke” what sort of language is that? I was having a well mannered chat with someone until you lot jumped down my throat for not posting what you wanted.

How the fuck am I supposed to know what you’ve been discussing with other people?

If I’ve said something YOU have already discussed then be an adult and scroll past my post.

 

[Octavian]

Why don't you fuck off then.
Bellend.

Hahaha as if to prove my point

 

[ganganvince]

Full of rude tossers on this page isn’t it.

I originally made the point that the Brexit argument should have been to sacrifice trade and the economy for more power transferred back from Brussels to London, that would have been the honest argument.

your weird mates jumped on that as a pro Brexit argument when it wasn’t.

You then claimed that us having to align with Brussels to trade with them is still us taking rules from there Parliament, I just said no it isn’t.

You see how conversations work when someone shifts the goalposts?

Think you are right on the original arguments. Behind the misrepresentation there was a choice to carry on as we were or sacrifice on the financial front whilst controlling immigration it would appear that immigration is a big thing to the majority of Brits (that voted) although not on this forum hence the Victor Meldrew appreciation society are out in force.

 

[west didsblue]

Hahaha as if to prove my point

If you join a forum and within a fortnight you're calling people tossers, weirdos and oddballs what the fuck do you expect.

 

[dave_blue12]

Think you are right on the original arguments. Behind the misrepresentation there was a choice to carry on as we were or sacrifice on the financial front whilst controlling immigration it would appear that immigration is a big thing to the majority of Brits (that voted) although not on this forum hence the Victor Meldrew appreciation society are out in force.

Ah the immigration that we could have controlled whilst in the EU but chose not to.

Great argument !

 

[Octavian]

If you join a forum and within a fortnight you're calling people tossers, weirdos and oddballs what the fuck do you expect.

I made a very tame point and was called stupid, accused of being someone’s second profile and had you all jumping down my throat.

I think what I said was a reasonable response to be honest.

The majority of the forum is fine, it’s just this page where you’re all frothing at the mouth.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I understand people have concerns and Brexit has been handled badly by the Tories , but Brexit has put the Tories in a bind as well. One of the main reasons i came to the conclusion that leaving was the correct thing to do was I believe we had to break away from the Neo-Liberal orthodoxy of the EU, The Tories though are wedded to Neo-Liberal orthodoxy which is why they have made a dogs dinner of it. The EU had been moving increasingly in the direction of a social and economic model that prioritizes the imperatives of the market and of business profitability over the requirements of democratic equality and social solidarity. Democracy under capitalism is democracy to the extent that it corrects the outcomes of markets in an egalitarian direction. Economic liberalization disconnects democracy from the economy and that in itself explains why so many places that felt left behind voted to leave. They became disconnected from the Democratic process and felt powerless.

The EU concentrated on business and finance and never got around to organising an EU wide social model. That disenfranchised many people, they had no stake in the EU, if you have no stake in a system then that system is outside of your self interest.

We now have a chance to re-establish a social contract, Ironically it has taken a pandemic to show that it is possible to have a social contract and that there are in fact magic money trees, I hope the Left sees this and takes advantage for the good of the country, it has the chance now, will it take it, I am not so sure, because many people put the needs of capitalism before the needs of people. If you voted remain, that is you, you voted for the needs of capitalism, you voted against the needs of people and against the need for a renewal of a social contract. But hey Waitrose has no avocado's.

I sometimes quite like your posts but this one looks like you have vomited every smart arse left wing phrase you can think of. Its like a very bad Wolfie Smith. Its also the worst excuse for voting Brexit I have ever seen.
'Vote for it so that an unelectable party will propose an unelectable social contract (maybe)'. There was nothing stopping the Labour Party proposing that at any time we were EU members. Indeed Sturgeon has gone some way to implementing exactly that in Scotland.

My god see where and what your vote has got us.

 

[ganganvince]

Ah the immigration that we could have controlled whilst in the EU but chose not to.

Great argument !

Wasn't an argument it was an observation.

 

[dave_blue12]

Wasn't an argument it was an observation.

You made an 'observation' that was factually incorrect.

Whilst immigration was pushed as a reason for leaving the EU by the liars of the Leave campaign it was not valid. Much like the rest of the Leave lies that were swallowed hook line and sinker by much of the population.

 

[Octavian]

You made an 'observation' that was factually incorrect.

Whilst immigration was pushed as a reason for leaving the EU by the liars of the Leave campaign it was not valid. Much like the rest of the Leave lies that were swallowed hook line and sinker by much of the population.

It’s true Italy enforce these rules, anyone who’s a burden on the state can be returned to their prior country after 3 months.

Cameron’s government were either too lazy or didn’t have the infrastructure in place to police it.

 

[Chris in London]

It’s true Italy enforce these rules, anyone who’s a burden on the state can be returned to their prior country after 3 months.

Cameron’s government were either too lazy or didn’t have the infrastructure in place to police it.

No, the cost of implementing and administering that scheme was judged to be greater that the savings to the Treasury of not paying benefits etc to those who they were entitled to repatriate. Nothing to do with laziness or a lack of infrastructure, it was a deliberate policy choice.

The leave campaign just lied about it. If only people like you had taken the time to understand the arguments in 2016.

 

[Octavian]

No, the cost of implementing and administering that scheme was judged to be greater that the savings to the Treasury of not paying benefits etc to those who they were entitled to repatriate. Nothing to do with laziness or a lack of infrastructure, it was a deliberate policy choice.

The leave campaign just lied about it. If only people like you had taken the time to understand the arguments in 2016.

Fuck me, another insufferable rude get.

I voted remain.

The reason being is I didn’t know enough so better the devil you know.

Think I’m done with this page unless I have to respond to any more abuse.

 

[dave_blue12]

It’s true Italy enforce these rules, anyone who’s a burden on the state can be returned to their prior country after 3 months.

Cameron’s government were either too lazy or didn’t have the infrastructure in place to police it.

Brexit was never about immigration. Immigration was just one of the levers used to get the masses in line.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Full of rude tossers on this page isn’t it.

I originally made the point that the Brexit argument should have been to sacrifice trade and the economy for more power transferred back from Brussels to London, that would have been the honest argument.

your weird mates jumped on that as a pro Brexit argument when it wasn’t.

You then claimed that us having to align with Brussels to trade with them is still us taking rules from there Parliament, I just said no it isn’t.

You see how conversations work when someone shifts the goalposts?

Ok mate, you gave as good as you got so best not to be too sensitive.

The argument seems to boil down to three simple positions:

1) be a full blown member of the EU (the position) we had
2) be a member of the single market (but as you say Brussel dictates the trading standards)
3) be outside all of it and make up our own rules (although the reality is we will end up copying and pasting the EU rules) with all that comes with it when it comes to trading with our closest and biggest trade partner.

1. Is best 2. as you point out is imperfect but the question is, is it better than 3?
My view, yes. Almost certainly. You may reasonably have a different view.

I am assuming that you are not a re-incarnation of some of the characters we had on here in the past. If you had inhabited this thread over the last few years you would understand why it is pretty polarised. It is an extremely emotive subject for many. It is possible to have a decent debate and to disagree and still be civil but its best to tread a little more lightly and to be very specific in your posts. That lessens the chance of misunderstandings.
Have a good one mate.