For me it’s a very practical thing and is an ongoing exploration. And if I’m not ‘wrong’ about some ideas, then where is an opportunity for growth? You can speak of wishful thinking and fantasy if you want - but maybe it would be better if you spoke for yourself rather than for me? I can understand that some may choose to cut themselves off from others that don’t believe in God AND not necessarily agree with that understanding. Eventually mental beliefs about God or not come to feel, at best, like living life in a second hand way - and the ‘deep’ intellectualism that was once indulged in comes to feel quite shallow and less attractive. Rather, it starts to feel like there is a dimension of beauty that is in the simple things and everyday life - and the question is how to connect with that, how to live in harmony with it, how to enjoy it. Don’t have to wait until you’re dead to discover who was right or wrong about ‘god’ - there is more Life to open to here and now, why not see where that leads instead?
Religion
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BlueMoonAcrossThePond
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As stated - go ahead and abandon reason and need for proof and believe whatever you want. It's "growth" and "spiritual" and - well - whatever.
Often such "growth" leads to extreme violence against others not so disposed.
Truth is truth - and is evident by facts observed and reproducible experiments. Anything else is speculation.
I'm not going to convince you otherwise. I only hope that once your religious leader instructs that you must kill 10 heathens to go to heaven - you'll have serious second thoughts about following through.
My brother switches radical beliefs every decade or so. Thirty odd years ago he was a Greenpeace zealot. He confessed to me that he was on the verge of killing in the name of Greenpeace but at the last moment had a change of conscious. Fucking, totally scarry. My own brother on the brink of killing for a cause. And now my same brother is a religious nut. And can change beliefs, radically. What if he comes into contact with some nut who wants him to kill others in the name of God? Kill 10 unbelievers and you'll go to heaven. I'd like to believe that my brother would not participate in a scheme to kill others - but given that he nearly killed others in the name of Greenpeace without any promise of eternal salvation... I really have no confidence at all that he'd decline to kill others.
And hence, we're back to, "Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms."
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journolud
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I don't think there is anything that @arfurclue has said or hinted at that could lead one to believe he or others of his ilk are on the path to the sort of extremism that leads to violence, that comes from a reductionist view rather than growth. I'm sure he'll speak for himself, although it's a bit convoluted in saying that the quest for spiritual growth can transcend religion or be part of it but is a world away from fundamentalism. Does seem that his earlier suggestion of you finding a description of or facet of religion that suits your viewpoint was close to the mark.
BlueMoonAcrossThePond
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Belief in something - whatever it is - wholeheartedly and entirely without supporting facts. That's religion. And quite often - always? - this leads to persecution, tension, and with frequency death.
And by the way - how is it that you "grow" by believing in something that's not supported by fact? How does this make you a better person? And by inference - those that don't "grow" worse... or maybe much worse... often to the extent that they oppose you... downright dangerous... and ought we to punish, lock up or indeed kill those who refuse to see as we do?
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Coal was 'made' by trees growing and dying. This happened for centuries, then for centuries in was pressed into the ground as other vegetation and other sediment came on top.
And yet the earth is only 3 centuries old !
Amazing
And yet the earth is only 3 centuries old !
Amazing
Genuinely, have you thought about talking to someone about your brother? At the moment, it feels that you are reading what I write through the filter of your experience with him. Which makes any attempt at conversation with you kind of pointless. I hope you do find more and more of the calm and peace that you speak of.
mancity2012_eamo
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It’s getting younger according to you.
300 years old?
It was 3,000 in your last post.
BlueMoonAcrossThePond
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I have expressed my thoughts about my brother - obviously - read the above for example.
My views about religion are separate from my experience with my brother. Religion is a belief in God or the afterlife without any basis in fact. Quite often this leads to violence; and in cases where violence does not ensue, it frequently leads to alienation.
Moreover, belief in something without basis in fact - often leads to belief in other things without basis in fact. It's a slippery slope.
journolud
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You continue to take a perversely narrow view. Want examples of people that believe in something wholeheartedly and entirely without supporting facts? Anti vaxxers, this often leads to death. Climate change deniers, this will lead to deaths. Neither of these are religion but share the characteristics of all stubborn, deluded science deniers. Some religious adherents share these characteristics.
How do you grow by believing in something not supported by facts? By experience. Spiritual growth is about trying something and seeing if it works (I'm oversimplifying). Don't confuse it with reading the bible and taking it as, well gospel. So for example, can we feel better by doing "random acts of kindness" ? Apparently so but not yet backed up by "fact". It's an experiential thing. It's growth as a person, whether you call it spiritual or not.
A lot of what we accept as facts nowadays were previously beliefs. I'm all for science, but there is room for a bit of mystery and exploration in your life.
journolud
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Erm, I think paulsimpson has bailed out mate. We're discussing more lofty matters than the creation myth. Was going to mention the experiential aspect of Buddhism but noticed you were back on the thread and thought you'd wade in with your all Buddhist are murderers schtick. I've probably done it now...
journolud
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There's preaching to the converted and then beseeching the unconvertable.
I had a Ford Capri, absolutely gorgeous, loved it. The one problem was I couldn't take the roof off.
Much the same I suppose.
Funny old game, this being human thing :) i quite like the following from an article with David Bohm (and I wonder if it touches on your earlier post re the experiential?):
“Someday, science and art will merge, Bohm predicted. “This division of art and science is temporary,” he observed. “It didn't exist in the past, and there’s no reason why it should go on in the future.” Just as art consists not simply of works of art but of an “attitude, the artistic spirit,” so does science consist not in the accumulation of knowledge but in the creation of fresh modes of perception. “The ability to perceive or think differently is more important than the knowledge gained,” Bohm explained.” https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/david-bohm-quantum-mechanics-and-enlightenment/
For me this raises the question of whether there is twofold path of ’art’ and ’science‘ that leads to unity. Like there can be a deeper opening to artistic spirit that necessitates the development of new scientific perceptions to fit…and/or there can be a breakthrough in fresh scientific perception that requires a deeper opening to artistic spirit to fit. And the two play off each other this way in an evolutionary manner, though some may choose to the old artistic spirit/scientific perception.
Marklr
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mancity2012_eamo
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According to a book of fiction.
You do know neither are real, don’t you.
In U.S., roughly three-in-ten adults now religiously unaffiliated
www.pewresearch.org
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In U.S., roughly three-in-ten adults now religiously unaffiliated
from the same people
Britain relentlessly becoming land of secularists and atheists
A 'dramatic decline' in Christian belief and practice and a 'substantial increase in atheism', are recorded in a new survey
Atheism is growing at a greater rate than any religion is. And anywhere where there is atheism, it is growing very quickly (quadrupling over the last ten years in many countries).
Even in places you wouldn’t expect, like Iran; around 9% of their population are convinced atheists.
Cheers. I wonder how many of those that left, have ended up as ‘spiritual but not religious?’In U.S., roughly three-in-ten adults now religiously unaffiliated
from the same people