Religion

[arfurclue]

That’s a fair point to make but I saw the vague style and vagueness of the views you seemed to have as intrinsically linked. The former representing a shadow of the latter.

That’s a fair point too :) Yes there is a time when going from a rigid ‘I know and it’s this’ to a ‘I don’t know but it feels like there is something to explore here’ - hopefully opening to deeper insight- and I can see that this middle part may well come across as vague. Maybe I should leave that part out but fuck it, it all feels part of it. And if people write here in a way that may help me move from the first part to the second, then that doesn’t seem like such a bad thing. Still ‘might’ not end up agreeing with them but such is life :)

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

none of the church fathers prior to 3 centuries after jesus, mentioned the father and the son as being equally. it was mentioned in the 4th century. why did it take so long to make both god and jesus in the same bracket?

Because religions are subject to their own "evolutionary pressures", don't confuse that with being locked in a direction towards progressivism, what I mean is that they face internal and external threats that force them to adapt or die out. Conflating god and jesus was probably a very powerful and persuasive idea at the time it was created.

It is why Wilford Woodruff and the main branch of mormonism publicly disowned polygamy.

There aren't any "Jewish Christians" around anymore, because that sect didn't adapt to change and competitors and died out.

The Shakers are down to 3 members.
Their members don't believe in procreation, so they could become extinct very soon.

Shakers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Theology and Philosophy in Secular University
Not a minister

Online only or just a private American university? :)

 

[tonea2003]

none of the church fathers prior to 3 centuries after jesus, mentioned the father and the son as being equally. it was mentioned in the 4th century. why did it take so long to make both god and jesus in the same bracket?

you are right to a point, but the gospel attributed to john(written maybe early 2nd century), the jesus in this version has no problem saying he is god, he is constantly is saying it i.e 10:30 and should have been stoned to death (they did try but not very hard it appears as he talks to them and they seem to stop)
which incidentally is in complete opposition to the synoptics

 

[idahoblues]

It is Brigham Young and the main branch of mormonism disowned polygamy.

It’s still alive and kicking

 

[Octavian]

Because religions are subject to their own "evolutionary pressures", don't confuse that with being locked in a direction towards progressivism, what I mean is that they face internal and external threats that force them to adapt or die out. Conflating god and jesus was probably a very powerful and persuasive idea at the time it was created.

It is why Brigham Young and the main branch of mormonism disowned polygamy.

There aren't any "Jewish Christians" around anymore, because that sect didn't adapt to change and competitors and died out.

The Shakers are down to 3 members.
Their members don't believe in procreation, so they could become extinct very soon.

Shakers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There’s quite a few Jewish Christians to be fair. Using several definitions of that term.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

There’s quite a few Jewish Christians to be fair. Using several definitions of that term.

Excuse my ignorance, but are Judaism and Christianity not at odds with each other?
Can you be Jewish and Christian?
I understand initially there were Jews who thought Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, but now?
Are the two ideologies compatible?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

It’s still alive and kicking

Indeed, I wasn't under the impression that it wasn't practiced anymore, because there's still plenty of pervy and old fashioned men looking to take advantage of their "cultural heritage". And these kind of events usually lead to a schism and a new sect.

I've edited my post, I'd sloppily assumed it was Brigham Young from memory and not bothered to check.

Point was that they bent to the political pressure of the US in order to join the union.

I hear they even let black people into their church nowadays.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

There’s quite a few Jewish Christians to be fair. Using several definitions of that term.

Touché, but I meant the "Jewish Christians" that split when early Christianity accepted non-jews or their directly descended sects, not revivalists. Substitute it for Gnostics, you get the point.

 

[idahoblues]

Indeed, I wasn't under the impression that it wasn't practiced anymore, because there's still plenty of pervy and old fashioned men looking to take advantage of their "cultural heritage". And these kind of events usually lead to a schism and a new sect.

I've edited my post, I'd sloppily assumed it was Brigham Young from memory and. not bothered to check.

Point was that they bent to the political pressure of the US in order to join the union.

I hear they even let black people into their church nowadays.

I understand, you’re right

 

[Octavian]

Excuse my ignorance, but are Judaism and Christianity not at odds with each other?
Can you be Jewish and Christian?
I understand initially there were Jews who thought Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, but now?
Are the two ideologies compatible?

Judaism talks of a Messiah and the Old Testament is gearing towards this messiah coming. Jesus and his followers claimed he was it but there was a slight but significant change in his supposed teachings, than what the Old Testament taught (the Old Testament is the Jewish Bible and both Jews and Christians still today consider it holy), in places.

The New Testament claims he is fulfilling the Old Testament and I suppose you could say adding context to the law.

The vast majority of Jews say he wasn’t the messiah (que monty python jokes) and that Christianity is a significant divergence away from Judaism, and they reject the New Testament - the Jesus bit of the Bible.

The vast majority of Christian’s believe Jesus is the prophecy of the Old Testament manifest and that he came to complete and clarify the Old Testament.

Historically, for many years, the vast majority of Christians were ethnic Jews. The Romans saw them as a Jewish sect and when Rome experienced the fire, Nero did what many European leaders have done throughout history and scapegoated a Jewish minority… Christians.

So they are deeply linked but it depends which standing point you’re coming from.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I understand, you’re right

Lol.

This is consistent with what was implied by "main branch" even if the bit about BY was unintentional bollocks.

Polygamy (called plural marriage by Latter-day Saints in the 19th century or the Principle by modern fundamentalist practitioners of polygamy) was practiced by leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) for more than half of the 19th century,[1] and practiced publicly from 1852 to 1890 by between 20 and 30 percent of Latter-day Saint families.[2][3] Today, various denominations of fundamentalist Mormonism continue to practice polygamy.[4]

 

[idahoblues]

Lol.

This is consistent with what was implied by "main branch" even if the bit about BY was unintentional bollocks.

I’ve been living behind the Zion Curtain for over thirty years, I know plenty about that crazy church, I can smell a Mo’ a mile off :)

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I’ve been living behind the Zion Curtain for over thirty years, I know plenty about that crazy church, I can smell a Mo’ a mile off :)

Didn't know this sort of stuff existed.

Or that pouring a drink from a bottle or tap into a glass was such a complex process that you need to watch a bartender do it to work out how it is done.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Judaism talks of a Messiah and the Old Testament is gearing towards this messiah coming. Jesus and his followers claimed he was it but there was a slight but significant change in his supposed teachings, than what the Old Testament taught (the Old Testament is the Jewish Bible and both Jews and Christians still today consider it holy), in places.

The New Testament claims he is fulfilling the Old Testament and I suppose you could say adding context to the law.

The vast majority of Jews say he wasn’t the messiah (que monty python jokes) and that Christianity is a significant divergence away from Judaism, and they reject the New Testament - the Jesus bit of the Bible.

The vast majority of Christian’s believe Jesus is the prophecy of the Old Testament manifest and that he came to complete and clarify the Old Testament.

Historically, for many years, the vast majority of Christians were ethnic Jews. The Romans saw them as a Jewish sect and when Rome experienced the fire, Nero did what many European leaders have done throughout history and scapegoated a Jewish minority… Christians.

So they are deeply linked but it depends which standing point you’re coming from.

Where did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

 

[Octavian]

Where did Jesus claim to be the messiah?

Off the top of my head Matthew 11 and the below in Mark 14 are two examples:


But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

 

[Marklr]

Off the top of my head Matthew 11 and the below in Mark 14 are two examples:


But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Giving that the Old Testament predicted the arrival of a "messiah", I imagine there were many of these messiahs before the one story that stuck.

 

[Octavian]

Giving that the Old Testament predicted the arrival of a "messiah", I imagine there were many of these messiahs before the one story that stuck.

The question was why and how does Judaism fit in with Christianity if you read the last page or two.

I’ve just told the guy why.

 

[Marklr]

The question was why and how does Judaism fit in with Christianity if you read the last page or two.

I’ve just told the guy why.

I know...i was just adding an opinion.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Giving that the Old Testament predicted the arrival of a "messiah", I imagine there were many of these messiahs before the one story that stuck.

I prefer this one.