Russian invasion of Ukraine

Octavian said:
Some may have joined the Germans at the time but it wasn’t a majority of units and I haven’t heard that mentioned at all in the last few weeks - I don’t think Russian soldiers now have that in mind nor the **** instructing them.
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Putin was born in 1952, it's likely that he holds some grudges about WW2 given he grew up in the shadow of it.
 
Octavian said:
The German Reich went in and slaughtered Soviet citizens and people in their military that were captured.

Surpreme Commander of the German forces on the Eastern front, Brauchitsch, was charged with war crimes at the Nuremberg trials but the **** died before being found guilty.

Hitler gave a direct order to his generals to commit atrocities.
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The atrocities were generally left to the scum of the earth. German soldiers who were becoming traumatised by the killings in the East were allowed to transfer to 'other' duties.
 
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
The atrocities were generally left to the scum of the earth. German soldiers who were becoming traumatised by the killings in the East were allowed to transfer to 'other' duties.
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The German front line also committed them but the SS following them did a lot of it.
 
JASR said:
There’s so much fucking history being bloody re fought again and again.

next door to Belarus and Ukraine is Poland for example, I think they have a couple of issues with Russia… kaytn et al https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre let alone nazi’s.

it’s like the balkans and the Middle East. Embedded hatred with no way back
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East Europe is like tinderbox with all the different religions especially the Balkan’s who had Muslims Cristians and orthodox all living together under Tito bug when he died it all started to unravel.
 
Coatigan said:
I don't have an issue with posters taking that side, and claiming Putin's views on NATO are a contributing factor to why he went and invaded the whole of Ukraine.

What I have an issue with is portraying that as perfectly understandable, heck even reasonable, and something NATO and a Sovereign nation making its own choices willingly provoked. Or could/should have avoided.

If anything they avoided for over half a decade, and he Still went and invaded them.

That stance is not some alternative take intellectual balance to the discussion, it is not even shades of fucking grey to a highly complex situation. It is just pedsntic apologist wisearsery.
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I can't imagine anyone thinking that is a reasonable or remotely rational reason to invade a sovereign nation...and if I gave you that impression then I ought to work on my writing. Putin not a rational actor, he clearly views himself as the grand savior of the Russian empire and means to redraw the borders to align with what he views as rightfully Russian territory or at the very least expand their sphere of influence ..its beyond mad and completely frightening. What I will say is, if you analyze and understand Putin as that person, this is EXACTLY the man he is, and exactly what he has been positioning Russia for for near two decades. NATO hasn't provoked it insofar as doing anything to make this happen, that is all on Russian/Putin's imperialist dreams. NATO is our only hope in making sure Russia goes no further, and is punished to the maximum extent that renders them a fully neutered (former) world power. The real questions to me at this point are how China comes down on this whole thing, do they help support Russia as these sanctions and isolation hurt them? And can Ukraine hold long enough to force Putin to the table in a weak enough position to leave the country mostly intact?

Not sure if anyone has read this, but very informative article here, worth a read.
www.politico.com

‘Yes, He Would’: Fiona Hill on Putin and Nukes

Putin is trying to take down the entire world order, the veteran Russia watcher said in an interview. But there are ways even ordinary Americans can fight back.
www.politico.com www.politico.com
 
Keith Moncrieff said:
Russians are running out of food and fuel
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Be a shame if they all froze and starved to death in that stationary convoy.

But I’m not supposed to revel in such ideas according to some on here, because they’ve all got mums at home.

They’re only “following orders”. Now where has that defence been used before…
 
Johnny Mars Bar said:
Be a shame if they all froze and starved to death in that stationary convoy.

But I’m not supposed to revel in such ideas according to some on here, because they’ve all got mums at home.

They’re only “following orders”. Now where has that defence been used before…
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The Boer War, where it was originally used as a defence in the breaker Morant case, (one ofy favourite wars films)


Then after both post WW1& WW2 trials hepd
 
Johnny Mars Bar said:
Be a shame if they all froze and starved to death in that stationary convoy.

But I’m not supposed to revel in such ideas according to some on here, because they’ve all got mums at home.

They’re only “following orders”. Now where has that defence been used before…
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How do they know they are running out of fuel or food off to is it just wishful thinking .
 
Putin has backed himself into a corner with no way out. This was exactly what we didn’t want to happen with the UK intervening, but he has done it on his own accord. Personally I see 3 outcomes

1) He is dealt with in house, and taken down

2) He comes to his senses and back down.

3) WW3
 
mackenzie said:
All this makes me long for the days of Gorbachev. He lived through the days, and legacy, of WW2 but that made him a very different person from Putin. I think Putin having been a KGB officer is the difference here.
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Even though I was a kid he always seemed a decent leader and we had better relations with him
 
jerseyblue said:
I can't imagine anyone thinking that is a reasonable or remotely rational reason to invade a sovereign nation...and if I gave you that impression then I ought to work on my writing. Putin not a rational actor, he clearly views himself as the grand savior of the Russian empire and means to redraw the borders to align with what he views as rightfully Russian territory or at the very least expand their sphere of influence ..its beyond mad and completely frightening. What I will say is, if you analyze and understand Putin as that person, this is EXACTLY the man he is, and exactly what he has been positioning Russia for for near two decades. NATO hasn't provoked it insofar as doing anything to make this happen, that is all on Russian/Putin's imperialist dreams. NATO is our only hope in making sure Russia goes no further, and is punished to the maximum extent that renders them a fully neutered (former) world power. The real questions to me at this point are how China comes down on this whole thing, do they help support Russia as these sanctions and isolation hurt them? And can Ukraine hold long enough to force Putin to the table in a weak enough position to leave the country mostly intact?

Not sure if anyone has read this, but very informative article here, worth a read.
www.politico.com

‘Yes, He Would’: Fiona Hill on Putin and Nukes

Putin is trying to take down the entire world order, the veteran Russia watcher said in an interview. But there are ways even ordinary Americans can fight back.
www.politico.com www.politico.com
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You didn't at all, and although in response to your post it wasn't aimed at you at all. I was expanding on your point and mentioning a few themes that have been on here.

There is a world of diffeewnce between saying Putin thinks NATO is a threat to Russia and is part of the reason for this invasion (that you suggested), and that the EU, the West and NATO caused this invasion by forcefully expanding on Putin so poor guy had no choice but to follow up on his clear long term threats. That one or two others have implied.

That was really all I was saying.
 
mackenzie said:
All this makes me long for the days of Gorbachev. He lived through the days, and legacy, of WW2 but that made him a very different person from Putin. I think Putin having been a KGB officer is the difference here.
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Putin saw his initial KGB life collapse when the Berlin Wall fell. He’s been on a mission to reset life back to that time since then
 
rickmcfc said:
Putin has backed himself into a corner with no way out. This was exactly what we didn’t want to happen with the UK intervening, but he has done it on his own accord. Personally I see 3 outcomes

1) He is dealt with in house, and taken down

2) He comes to his senses and back down.

3) WW3
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I vote for #1
 
bobmcfc said:
Even though I was a kid he always seemed a decent leader and we had better relations with him
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Yeah, he had a vision that was immense.
Actually, the fact that Putin is 20 years younger than Gorbachev (and so the "next generation") reminds me of how one generation can feel that the one before it has somehow "let the side down" in circumstances like this. So they have this burning desire to avenge what they see as capitulation.
The whole Guy Fawkes thing here was similar I believe. Young Catholics hated how they saw their forefathers and families had been cowed, so wanted to "make amends."
 
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