Keir Starmer

[Rascal]

I'm lost. My argument is that your attempt to equate Hunt and Starmer is ridiculous.

I don't think they are equivalent, but they are not that far apart. They are both Liberals in the old sense of Liberal, that being in favour of freedom and equality. That is the nature of centrism, there is a natural overlap where the Liberal Left and the Liberal Right come together. This is the mythical centre ground. From each direction Hunt and Starmer would try to occupy that ground in the belief that brings power. In effect it would take us back to the years where there was a fag paper between the parties as opposed to the gulf when Corbyn and Johnson were in contention.

In some ways that is why Brexit was achieved, the left of Labour and the right of the Tories became allied as leave whilst the right of Labour and the left of the Tories( the old Liberal centre) became allied as remain. Obviously its more complicated than that, but that is an underlying reason as shown by Johnson's culling of the Tory left. Starmers culling of the Labourleft is a tactic that is being used to try to drag Labour back to the old Liberal centre, where as Hunt would in my opinion also try to drag the Tories leftwards back towards the old Liberal centre.

 

[Postman Pep]

Daft.

I don't think Jeremy Hunt was named by his parents after a Labour Party leader.

Hunt: "... he tried his hand at a number of different entrepreneurial business ventures, with three failed start-ups including an attempt to export marmalade to Japan"

Starmer: "He served as a legal officer for the campaign group Liberty until 1990. He was a member of Doughty Street Chambers from 1990 onwards, primarily working on human rights issues."

Noticeable cherry picking of Starmers CV there. As he said only yesterday in an interview , all through his life he has changed his view on things. He said that in justification of wiping the policy slate clean (relaunch number ... lost count)

So if even he is admitting he is no longer the man he was 2 years ago why are you pushing the illusion that he is the same man he was back in the 90's?

I get it nothing could be worse than Johnson, although there's a few on the Tory front bench who could give him a run for his money. That's one thing, pretending he is something he isn't is another.

Keir Starmer Is a Political Chameleon Whose Main Loyalty Is to His Own Advancement

Keir Starmer’s political career shows him to be an opportunist with a sycophantic attitude toward those in power. Since becoming Labour leader, his main priority has been to expunge left-wing ideas and influence, not to defeat the Conservative Party.

jacobin.com

 

[Bigga]

Labour isn't legislating to break the law, or to suppress protest, suppress voting, traffic asylum seekers, piss off our biggest export market, appease the DUP, stop employers settling strikes, etc etc

Please don't bring this "they're all the same" nonsense from the US thread to this thread.

I'll put up with Starmer's wishy-washy (but electable) socialism to get rid of the not so wishy-washy fascists.

No, that isn't what I was equating. You are gaslighting.

I've said the politics aren't very far at all, which means pandering to big business over the working class. There are policies held by the Cons, I'm pretty sure Labour will keep in place,, much as the Dems have from the last administration.

That's the nature of the Beast when things are not that far.

The actions you speak of might strike as true in differences, but this current Labour model will just lessen the impact of some of those policies, not completely oppose them.

You seem to forget these are BOTH neoliberal parties, but different by degrees of action. How else would they pander to a similar voting pool?

 

[Bigga]

I don't think they are equivalent, but they are not that far apart. They are both Liberals in the old sense of Liberal, that being in favour of freedom and equality. That is the nature of centrism, there is a natural overlap where the Liberal Left and the Liberal Right come together. This is the mythical centre ground. From each direction Hunt and Starmer would try to occupy that ground in the belief that brings power. In effect it would take us back to the years where there was a fag paper between the parties as opposed to the gulf when Corbyn and Johnson were in contention.

In some ways that is why Brexit was achieved, the left of Labour and the right of the Tories became allied as leave whilst the right of Labour and the left of the Tories( the old Liberal centre) became allied as remain. Obviously its more complicated than that, but that is an underlying reason as shown by Johnson's culling of the Tory left. Starmers culling of the Labourleft is a tactic that is being used to try to drag Labour back to the old Liberal centre, where as Hunt would in my opinion also try to drag the Tories leftwards back towards the old Liberal centre.

Excellent post!

I've not got into the details as you have, but made a similar argument.

Good stuff.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I don't think they are equivalent, but they are not that far apart. They are both Liberals in the old sense of Liberal, that being in favour of freedom and equality. That is the nature of centrism, there is a natural overlap where the Liberal Left and the Liberal Right come together. This is the mythical centre ground. From each direction Hunt and Starmer would try to occupy that ground in the belief that brings power. In effect it would take us back to the years where there was a fag paper between the parties as opposed to the gulf when Corbyn and Johnson were in contention.

In some ways that is why Brexit was achieved, the left of Labour and the right of the Tories became allied as leave whilst the right of Labour and the left of the Tories( the old Liberal centre) became allied as remain. Obviously its more complicated than that, but that is an underlying reason as shown by Johnson's culling of the Tory left. Starmers culling of the Labourleft is a tactic that is being used to try to drag Labour back to the old Liberal centre, where as Hunt would in my opinion also try to drag the Tories leftwards back towards the old Liberal centre.

But John Macdonell and Dianne Abbott supported a second referendum...?

I admire your lexit based stubbornness

 

[mat]

Labour isn't legislating to break the law, or to suppress protest, suppress voting, traffic asylum seekers, piss off our biggest export market, appease the DUP, stop employers settling strikes, etc etc

Please don't bring this "they're all the same" nonsense from the US thread to this thread.

I'll put up with Starmer's wishy-washy (but electable) socialism to get rid of the not so wishy-washy fascists.

If he gets into power let's see if he actually bothers repealing all the bills the Tories have put in. I suggest he won't.

 

[bluethrunthru]

If he gets into power let's see if he actually bothers repealing all the bills the Tories have put in. I suggest he won't.

That would depend on many things such as size of majority in an outright win or partners if its going into coaliton

 

[MillionMilesAway]

That would depend on many things such as size of majority in an outright win or partners if its going into coaliton

And also how easy/expensive it is to undo things.

 

[bluethrunthru]

And also how easy/expensive it is to undo things.

he could pay for some stuff on instalment - you know out of that £350m p.w. we are currently saving lol

 

[Vic]

I don't think they are equivalent, but they are not that far apart. They are both Liberals in the old sense of Liberal, that being in favour of freedom and equality. That is the nature of centrism, there is a natural overlap where the Liberal Left and the Liberal Right come together. This is the mythical centre ground. From each direction Hunt and Starmer would try to occupy that ground in the belief that brings power. In effect it would take us back to the years where there was a fag paper between the parties as opposed to the gulf when Corbyn and Johnson were in contention.

In some ways that is why Brexit was achieved, the left of Labour and the right of the Tories became allied as leave whilst the right of Labour and the left of the Tories( the old Liberal centre) became allied as remain. Obviously its more complicated than that, but that is an underlying reason as shown by Johnson's culling of the Tory left. Starmers culling of the Labourleft is a tactic that is being used to try to drag Labour back to the old Liberal centre, where as Hunt would in my opinion also try to drag the Tories leftwards back towards the old Liberal centre.

"They are both Liberals in the old sense of Liberal, that being in favour of freedom and equality. "

Are you not in favour of freedom and equality?

 

[Rascal]

"They are both Liberals in the old sense of Liberal, that being in favour of freedom and equality. "

Are you not in favour of freedom and equality?

Not in the old Liberal sense no. It was laissez faire, pro capitalist and I believe more concerned with equality of outcome than equality of opportunity.

 

[Vic]

No, that isn't what I was equating. You are gaslighting.

I've said the politics aren't very far at all, which means pandering to big business over the working class. There are policies held by the Cons, I'm pretty sure Labour will keep in place,, much as the Dems have from the last administration.

That's the nature of the Beast when things are not that far.

The actions you speak of might strike as true in differences, but this current Labour model will just lessen the impact of some of those policies, not completely oppose them.

You seem to forget these are BOTH neoliberal parties, but different by degrees of action. How else would they pander to a similar voting pool?

If that doesn't sound like equating, I'm not sure what would.

If you're not equating, tell us the differences.

 

[Gabriel]

Big speech planned from Starmer today in which he’s expected to address how Labour would try to make a better fist of Brexit without returning to freedom of movement.

 

[mat]

He looked very scared at the pride march.

 

[Gabriel]

He looked very scared at the pride march.

From what has been leaked to the media this morning, his speech sounds as if it has been drafted with the intention of winning Brexit voters in northern and midland seats in England/Wales. It, thus, takes London for granted and cuts Scotland loose as well; Labour in Scotland can’t argue that position and hope to take seats.

It really is looking as if it will be four elections in one at the next General Election.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Big speech planned from Starmer today in which he’s expected to address how Labour would try to make a better fist of Brexit without returning to freedom of movement.

This will be interesting - I see it as that they need to test the water on what line to put out ahead of any election. As a hardcore remainer I know there will be a lot of push back as it will be far short of any serious effort to get us back into the EU, not even back in to the SM/CU.

It will be interesting to see what noises the tories make - this speech will in part speak to the disaffected tory/leave voter who is maybe seeing the light and thinking its not all it cracked up to be. The reality for Labour / Lib Dem is they have the remain voters in any event. Its the wavering leavers they need to speak to and they need to slowly bring them back round to understanding that a policy based on two fingers up to the EU only makes our lives harder.

 

[mat]

From what has been leaked to the media this morning, his speech sounds as if it has been drafted with the intention of winning Brexit voters in northern and midland seats in England/Wales. It, thus, takes London for granted and cuts Scotland loose as well; Labour in Scotland can’t argue that position and hope to take seats.

It really is looking as if it will be four elections in one at the next General Election.

It intrests me as well. I'd frame it as a hopeful amd positive future for the whole UK.

 

[Gabriel]

This will be interesting - I see it as that they need to test the water on what line to put out ahead of any election. As a hardcore remainer I know there will be a lot of push back as it will be far short of any serious effort to get us back into the EU, not even back in to the SM/CU.

It will be interesting to see what noises the tories make - this speech will in part speak to the disaffected tory/leave voter who is maybe seeing the light and thinking its not all it cracked up to be. The reality for Labour / Lib Dem is they have the remain voters in any event. Its the wavering leavers they need to speak to and they need to slowly bring them back round to understanding that a policy based on two fingers up to the EU only makes our lives harder.

It takes the remain voters for granted at the same time as their votes will be needed if the non-aggression pact is to work: doomed if people abstain in numbers. Similarly, as I pointed out above, it casts Scotland adrift, so it’s quite likely the SNP vote will be needed if a coalition is to be formed.

 

[Gabriel]

It intrests me as well. I'd frame it as a hopeful amd positive future for the whole UK.

That might wash in London and England but Scottish Labour will be inwardly groaning. The SNP will make hay from the statement and point out that Starmer is just chasing English votes and keeping Brexit in a hard form. The Opposition parties really are in a fascinating state.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

It takes the remain voters for granted at the same time as their votes will be needed if the non-aggression pact is to work: doomed if people abstain in numbers. Similarly, as I pointed out above, it casts Scotland adrift, so it’s quite likely the SNP vote will be needed if a coalition is to be formed.

I dont see abstension when you look at how awful the tories are. There is a massive desire to kick the tories in the balls. That likely over-rides the EU issue for most voters, people just want the tories out.

As for the SNP - the issue above also drives voters to the SNP. I dont see them losing any support. Hopefully Labour and Lib Dem will have enough without them.