Gas & Electricity

[abu13]

As Mister Paul Weller once wrote "unity is powerfull"

 

[NJ Blue]

At the very best, it's a bit like telling EVERY household that their income is going down by £3k+ per year. The trouble is,even if people can absorb it, their discretiaonary spending then falls by at least that amount therby sucking that money from the rest of the economy, much of which the government gets 20% VAT on. As it stands it gets 5% on gas and electric and little on food, but if that's all people can afford to buy,then tax receipts will fall massively. We're fooked if it stays as it is.

I think that’s the bit that the tories aren’t understanding. I made the exact same point a while back before the latest round of estimated prices. The whole economy is going to contract massively and people will be affected directly by not being able to afford the prices, and indirectly as businesses close down and jobs are lost.

 

[Blue Maverick]

People worried about their credit rating if they don’t pay, who gives a fuck you wont be able to afford to buy anything anyway, credit card companies etc will be shitting as no one applies for one. Millions will have crap credit ratings so that had huge knock on effect to mortgages etc. The country is fucked, these companies won’t be getting paid so their shareholders won’t be getting anything, they need to take the hit on this

 

[Looby blue]

Riots and civil unrest are the only answer. However as we're castrated brits all we'll do is bitch and moan and then pay our direct debit.

Pat on the head for the compliant citizen.

 

[Bill Walker]

I'm already paying £300 a month and I'm £190 in credit
Used to pay £160 now they want over £700. Its a national scandal

Yes but a scandal that's very good news for Liverpool football club.

 

[tony coleman]

We've not been told what our new payment will yet. We are with EON. When or how do we get to know?

 

[Gray]

Made a payment to my energy supplier on the 14th July when I was shown as being 7p in debit. The amount I paid was £37.50 and the web site said that I was now £37.43 in credit.

When I looked a few days later the balance was back to 7p debit?

Several unanswered emails later I rang them and a lady cofirmed having received my payment but blamed the IT department for it not showing on the web site.

My July bill was added to the online account and I was now shown as being £75.30 in debit. More unanswered emails and threatening them with the Ombudsman did not solve the problem.

Another phone call and at last somebody who promised to sort the problem. An hour later I received an email saying my account was £37.80 in debit which was correct.

If I now look online the balance is correct but the payment made on the 14th July is shown as being made on the 12th August.

The incompetence of this company SO Energy is beyond acceptable, if I could leave them I would.

 

[marco]

 

[BimboBob]

No idea how is normal working class people will be able to pay these bills

Not just normal working class people whoever they are. Load of mates with mortgages which will see interest rises, rising fuel and food costs on top of energy.

Cutting your cloth accordingly is all well and good bit if everything rises something has to give.

Jumpers and coats all round it is.

 

[Saddleworth2]

So as a follow up @blueinsa I found this article from the Supplier, Good Energy.
I guess the main points I took from it are. There is only one wholesale market and the pricing is based on the 'marginal generator model.
To decouple pricing would mean a pretty fundamental shake up of energy trading but certainly not impossible.

The suppliers must make significant profits in periods where the marginal generator is far higher priced than say renewables. Its like going to Tesco, putting a loaf of Hovis,£1 a pack of apples £2.25 and bottle of malt £45 in your basket and paying £135 instead of £48.25.
I didnt get the analogy of the penalty taker at all.

All the move into renewables will mean diddly squat for consumers until they are able to match our total energy needs if the pricing model stays unchanged.

In the UK, there is one wholesale market for electricity, where generators (renewable and non-renewable) sell electricity to suppliers for particular periods of time. Like any commodity, there must be enough supply to meet demand at any one moment in time.

This means that there are negotiations throughout every single day between generators and suppliers to secure power. The price tends to fluctuate in every half hour period in response to factors such as availability and the time of day traded.

With renewables now supplying up to 40% of the UK electricity demand, big fossil fuel generating plants have had a diminishing role in the market. Whilst the greater volume of renewable generation is also altering how we decide which generation type is chosen when they are all available to meet demand.

The crucial reason for why the price of gas is so influential, comes from something called the ‘merit order’.

What is the merit order?​

Think of it like ranking an order of preference. When every generation type is available to meet demand, the system has to decide which technology is brought ‘online’ first.

The good news is that renewables are always chosen first when they are available because they are the cheapest to run. This is great for reducing emissions but it is also logical to meet demand with the cheapest generators available at the time. Unlike fossil fuel generation, which has a high marginal cost to run because they are burning something, the marginal cost for renewables is practically zero.

So, how is gas setting the price?​

This is because the electricity price in every half hour period is set by the marginal cost of the last generating unit to be turned off to meet demand – which is invariably a gas power plant with high marginal costs.
To provide an analogy, think of a penalty shootout in a sporting competition. A team will select a list of individuals in order of preference, with the best individuals selected first (i.e., renewables). But it’s the individual who steps up last who has the final say, deciding the fate of the result.

Generation types are like players in a penalty shootout. Renewables get selected first. But when the pressure is on, gas steps up to the spot. And its score determines the result.

The problem we have at the moment is that whilst renewable capacity has grown significantly, natural gas is still responsible for 38% of our electricity generation in the UK.
When we have periods of low winds for example, the system will often turn to gas generators to fill that demand. But that comes at a high price, and even more so recently with the record prices on the wholesale gas market.
As we move to a high renewable powered electricity system, it doesn’t make sense to have gas generators setting the price.

How can we reform the market in the long-term?​

If we are to fundamentally change how the price of electricity is set, a full reform of our wholesale markets will be required.
Should the government decide to make changes, possible reform options could include decoupling renewables from the wholesale market altogether, in effect having separate power markets.
Other ideas include taking an average price, which has been suggested in some European countries or moving to a model of locational pricing (nodal), which could see prices set at a much more local level and reflective of the costs of your local generator powering your home. Ultimately, however the market is designed, we need to accelerate the building out of a diverse mix of renewable infrastructure. The quicker we do this, the quicker we end our reliance on volatile fossil fuels setting the marginal price.

 

[blueinsa]

So as a follow up @blueinsa I found this article from the Supplier, Good Energy.
I guess the main points I took from it are. There is only one wholesale market and the pricing is based on the 'marginal generator model.
To decouple pricing would mean a pretty fundamental shake up of energy trading but certainly not impossible.

The suppliers must make significant profits in periods where the marginal generator is far higher priced than say renewables. Its like going to Tesco, putting a loaf of Hovis,£1 a pack of apples £2.25 and bottle of malt £45 in your basket and paying £135 instead of £48.25.
I didnt get the analogy of the penalty taker at all.

All the move into renewables will mean diddly squat for consumers until they are able to match our total energy needs if the pricing model stays unchanged.

In the UK, there is one wholesale market for electricity, where generators (renewable and non-renewable) sell electricity to suppliers for particular periods of time. Like any commodity, there must be enough supply to meet demand at any one moment in time.

This means that there are negotiations throughout every single day between generators and suppliers to secure power. The price tends to fluctuate in every half hour period in response to factors such as availability and the time of day traded.

With renewables now supplying up to 40% of the UK electricity demand, big fossil fuel generating plants have had a diminishing role in the market. Whilst the greater volume of renewable generation is also altering how we decide which generation type is chosen when they are all available to meet demand.

The crucial reason for why the price of gas is so influential, comes from something called the ‘merit order’.

What is the merit order?​

Think of it like ranking an order of preference. When every generation type is available to meet demand, the system has to decide which technology is brought ‘online’ first.

The good news is that renewables are always chosen first when they are available because they are the cheapest to run. This is great for reducing emissions but it is also logical to meet demand with the cheapest generators available at the time. Unlike fossil fuel generation, which has a high marginal cost to run because they are burning something, the marginal cost for renewables is practically zero.

So, how is gas setting the price?​

This is because the electricity price in every half hour period is set by the marginal cost of the last generating unit to be turned off to meet demand – which is invariably a gas power plant with high marginal costs.
To provide an analogy, think of a penalty shootout in a sporting competition. A team will select a list of individuals in order of preference, with the best individuals selected first (i.e., renewables). But it’s the individual who steps up last who has the final say, deciding the fate of the result.

The problem we have at the moment is that whilst renewable capacity has grown significantly, natural gas is still responsible for 38% of our electricity generation in the UK.
When we have periods of low winds for example, the system will often turn to gas generators to fill that demand. But that comes at a high price, and even more so recently with the record prices on the wholesale gas market.
As we move to a high renewable powered electricity system, it doesn’t make sense to have gas generators setting the price.

How can we reform the market in the long-term?​

If we are to fundamentally change how the price of electricity is set, a full reform of our wholesale markets will be required.
Should the government decide to make changes, possible reform options could include decoupling renewables from the wholesale market altogether, in effect having separate power markets.
Other ideas include taking an average price, which has been suggested in some European countries or moving to a model of locational pricing (nodal), which could see prices set at a much more local level and reflective of the costs of your local generator powering your home. Ultimately, however the market is designed, we need to accelerate the building out of a diverse mix of renewable infrastructure. The quicker we do this, the quicker we end our reliance on volatile fossil fuels setting the marginal price.

Thanks for taking the time to look all that up.

It’s complicated but it’s no surprise that it’s been decided the price will be set by the highest price available and it’s clear given the current crises that it is now the time to completely change the way we are charged by changing the system.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Thanks for taking the time to look all that up.

It’s complicated but it’s no surprise that it’s been decided the price will be set by the highest price available and it’s clear given the current crises that it is now the time to completely change the way we are charged by changing the system.

but why the hell do we need to find that out on bluemoon? I haven't heard anyone in the media make this obvious connection. No wonder the bastards are making so much profit. Wouldn't you think though that with the push towards renewables, the system would be set up to allow reward for their use rather than a massive bloody bill.

Scottish Parliament has no power over energy pricing. Don't think any of the responsibilities are devolved.

 

[marco]

the French seem to be dealing with things OK,they have even scrapped there equivalent to the BBC licence to help people out and opend up the use of coal untill this is sorted, so while the fuckwits who run this country put on a soap opera for leader lasting weeks they the French sort things out, we have a PM and the only thing he's doing is sitting playing with his dick passing time for the next 3 weeks

 

[lazerblue]

what would happen if you told them all you could afford was 200 a month and you just didn't have enough money to pay any more

 

[marco]

what would happen if you told them all you could afford was 200 a month and you just didn't have enough money to pay any more

thats going to be 50% of housholds anyway, they dont need telling they will find out come november when there bills are not paid,payment plan i guess, this could even bring the companys to there knees if enough people cant/wont pay, a perfect time to take it back to Government owned,,maybe this is the Governments game here

 

[Blackley_Blue]

Genuinely don't think I could afford next years predicted increases.

Some of the forecasts are double my mortgage payments

Scary stuff

 

[marco]

Genuinely don't think I could afford next years predicted increases.

Some of the forecasts are double my mortgage payments

Scary stuff

it is scary but you got to remember your not on your own with this 9 out of ten are in your position, the only way to deal with it is prioritize bills, food first,mortgage, etc etc then in my case Eon, i realy cant see there going to be paid from the end of November, so the only option is for them to cut me off, wife has instuctions to get candles, thats the direction were going in im afraid

 

[BlueHammer85]

I can see the Goverment offering loans to households and we pay them back for years to come

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

it is scary but you got to remember your not on your own with this 9 out of ten are in your position, the only way to deal with it is prioritize bills, food first,mortgage, etc etc then in my case Eon, i realy cant see there going to be paid from the end of November, so the only option is for them to cut me off, wife has instuctions to get candles, thats the direction were going in im afraid

Did you set her Sat Nav for Liverpool.

 

[lazerblue]

it is scary but you got to remember your not on your own with this 9 out of ten are in your position, the only way to deal with it is prioritize bills, food first,mortgage, etc etc then in my case Eon, i realy cant see there going to be paid from the end of November, so the only option is for them to cut me off, wife has instuctions to get candles, thats the direction were going in im afraid

so what do you do, cancel the direct debit or wait until your bank account is empty