Keir Starmer

[bluenova]

An alliance would be needed pre and post election but if you have an unfair system that isn’t getting us anywhere the only solution is to change the system.

There are only 2 parties that gain from the current system and the Tories have gained the most. They won’t change it so that leaves Labour having to step up. Are they willing to sacrifice full power sporadically for the betterment of the country?

Some posters dream is a Labour govt that will help people short term before the Tories tear it down again. An improvement needs more than a couple of election cycles.

A formal alliance is a crazy idea.

The talk of the Tories being a party of 40% is misleading as it suggests that there is near 60% waiting to beat them, if only they could commit.

Look at the last few elections. None have had a clear anti-Tory majority.
2010 - The LDs went with the Tories.
2015 - The LDs went into the election saying they would continue the coalition. In the end they weren't needed, and the Tory+UKIP+Unionists was over 50% of the vote.
2017 - The LDs specifically rules out supporting Corbyn, but refused to rule out supporting a Tory leader.
2019 - Possibly the only time that the obvious candidates for an alliance were anti-Tory, and still you're looking at around 48% for the Tories+Brexit+Unionists, which, with FPTP was still likely close enough to push them over even with a Lib/Lab pact. We also had talk before the election of EuroTories helping form a govt of national unity, but it was made clear that the LDs and SNP wouldn't do it with Corbyn in charge, so clearly they weren't all going to cosy up after an election.

So, even with the current situation, there hasn't been an obvious and easy anti-Tory alliance that we could have put together. BUT it's worse than that, as an alliance would only cut the votes for the parties involved.

Why would a Tory leaning LD vote for them in a formal alliance that brings a Labour led govt closer? We saw in 2015 that well over a million 2010 LD voters, went to the Tories.

Bizarre as it may seem to us, between 2017 and 2019 1.5million voters defected from Labour direct to the Tories. There are plenty of Labour voters who would rather vote Tory than have the SNP or Greens in positions of power.

It's a really lovely idea to think that the Tories are hated by most of the population, but sadly it's not true, and a formal alliance makes a Tory majority more likely.

What's happening now, with Labour and the Lib Dems having a soft alliance, and Starmer avoiding alienating LD voters is the best way to win an election.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Can we not just admit that the purist left wing labour leader got the absolute shite kicked out of him by the tories at 2 general elections and maybe the only chance of changing governments is with a blairite ****?

There are much more progressive people in the Labour Party than Starmer - many would be in his cabinet - but they can’t actually do anything when they’re in opposition for 2 decades.

The labour left got demonised to the point that the public were duped/scared into voting for another term of the Tories after the 'sucess' of the previous eight years or so of Tory austerity.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Can we not just admit that the purist right wing of the Labour party is opposed to any sort of Democratic Socialism and would rather enable a Tory government of right wing extremists than support Socialism

Starmer is removing Socialism from the lexicon, that is admitting defeat to the Tories as he follows them ever rightwards in the pursuit of power.

What is the point of a Labour party who will be just a friendlier version of the Tory party.

There is change in the air, led by Mick Lynch et al and Starmer ignores it. The people do not want another version of reconstructed Thatcherism, they want a strong state that will look after them. They want a govt. that will nationalise our precious resources and essential services, that will raise taxes to pay for essential services. The country is sick to fucking death of right wing nonsense yet Starmer is afraid to upset the Daily Mail FFS,

In fairness to Starmer, he realises that to get elected he needs to win over just one constituent - an Australian media mogul, the British electorate are in his pocket

 

[domalino]

The labour left got demonised to the point that the public were duped/scared into voting for another term of the Tories after the 'sucess' of the previous eight years or so of Tory austerity.

Fine, so let’s get back in power with a centrist and then let the left wing policies enacted by a labour government rebuild the public faith and belief in the labour left.

That’s what the conservatives did. Cameron came into the middle, won an election and then over the next 12 years they’ve marched steadily to the right.

 

[domalino]

Can we not just admit that the purist right wing of the Labour party is opposed to any sort of Democratic Socialism and would rather enable a Tory government of right wing extremists than support Socialism

Starmer is removing Socialism from the lexicon, that is admitting defeat to the Tories as he follows them ever rightwards in the pursuit of power.

What is the point of a Labour party who will be just a friendlier version of the Tory party.

There is change in the air, led by Mick Lynch et al and Starmer ignores it. The people do not want another version of reconstructed Thatcherism, they want a strong state that will look after them. They want a govt. that will nationalise our precious resources and essential services, that will raise taxes to pay for essential services. The country is sick to fucking death of right wing nonsense yet Starmer is afraid to upset the Daily Mail FFS,

So that will be a no, you won’t accept that a socialist Labour Party has been comprehensively rejected in the past 2 general elections by the British people and will keep hoping the next election will be different and getting upset when nothing changes instead of bridging the gap between the party and voters to try and actually win an election.

Sure, the conservatives will be in power for another decade and the millions of people will suffer, but you’ve stayed true to democratic socialism so it doesn’t matter.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Fine, so let’s get back in power with a centrist and then let the left wing policies enacted by a labour government rebuild the public faith and belief in the labour left.

That’s what the conservatives did. Cameron came into the middle, won an election and then over the next 12 years they’ve marched steadily to the right.

Fair shout, but I don't see any of the 'centrists' in labour moving as far left as ken Clarke

 

[hilts]

The trick will be is for any coalition to be agreed on the basis of equality - Cleggs urge to get involved got his party fucked over for a decade or more as they were arse fucked by their Tory partners. To go into it to change the electoral system as equals will set the tone for the future - if one tries to take the piss out of another is doomed to fail

The parties would have to put political change in their manifestos and decide on the things they agree on. Once a new system is in place they can very much go in their own direction.

If a coalition has over 50% support then they have a mandate for the change.

 

[blueinsa]

The labour left got demonised to the point that the public were duped/scared into voting for another term of the Tories after the 'sucess' of the previous eight years or so of Tory austerity.

I can’t agree with this I’m afraid.

The public might not have been all that enamoured with Corbyn and co, granted.

What they where frightened to death of and utterly refused to accept was Momentum who used Corbyn and co as puppets and who imo where dangerous as an organisation.

The damage was self inflicted imo.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Fair shout, but I don't see any of the 'centrists' in labour moving as far left as ken Clarke

Has he though? Or has the Tory Party moved so far to the right thats how it looks re Ken Clarke now?

 

[Shaelumstash]

That is the two choices you believe exist.

Why do you not believe in a better UK?

That is the two choices I believe exist, because if the last 40 years has taught us anything, it's that the UK electorate will only elect a centre left Labour government, or the Tories.

Even if I wanted a far-left Labour PM, it's not a choice because the electorate won't elect them.

I believe the UK was a miles better place under Blair in terms of health, education, economy, socially, pretty much everything was better than it is now. And better than it was under Harold Wilson.

 

[Rascal]

So that will be a no, you won’t accept that a socialist Labour Party has been comprehensively rejected in the past 2 general elections by the British people and will keep hoping the next election will be different and getting upset when nothing changes instead of bridging the gap between the party and voters to try and actually win an election.

Sure, the conservatives will be in power for another decade and the millions of people will suffer, but you’ve stayed true to democratic socialism so it doesn’t matter.

When a mildly Socialist Labour party was stabbed in the back by the likes of Ian Austin and Chuka Unuma. undermined by the Party HQ workers, smeared by the likes of Hodge that was not a reason Labour lost?, it was because it was mildly Socialist. Now these centrist liberal clowns expect the left of the party to fall in behind them and sacrifice our beliefs.

I will not be voting for Labour at the next election,

 

[Rascal]

That is the two choices I believe exist, because if the last 40 years has taught us anything, it's that the UK electorate will only elect a centre left Labour government, or the Tories.

Even if I wanted a far-left Labour PM, it's not a choice because the electorate won't elect them.

I believe the UK was a miles better place under Blair in terms of health, education, economy, socially, pretty much everything was better than it is now. And better than it was under Harold Wilson.

So Democratic Socialism is far left now?

I wish somebody on the left would form a new party that could act like UKIP did on the Tories and drag the Labour party back towards the left and away from the centrist nonsense that in reality is just more neo liberalism.

 

[hilts]

A formal alliance is a crazy idea.

The talk of the Tories being a party of 40% is misleading as it suggests that there is near 60% waiting to beat them, if only they could commit.

Look at the last few elections. None have had a clear anti-Tory majority.
2010 - The LDs went with the Tories.
2015 - The LDs went into the election saying they would continue the coalition. In the end they weren't needed, and the Tory+UKIP+Unionists was over 50% of the vote.
2017 - The LDs specifically rules out supporting Corbyn, but refused to rule out supporting a Tory leader.
2019 - Possibly the only time that the obvious candidates for an alliance were anti-Tory, and still you're looking at around 48% for the Tories+Brexit+Unionists, which, with FPTP was still likely close enough to push them over even with a Lib/Lab pact. We also had talk before the election of EuroTories helping form a govt of national unity, but it was made clear that the LDs and SNP wouldn't do it with Corbyn in charge, so clearly they weren't all going to cosy up after an election.

So, even with the current situation, there hasn't been an obvious and easy anti-Tory alliance that we could have put together. BUT it's worse than that, as an alliance would only cut the votes for the parties involved.

Why would a Tory leaning LD vote for them in a formal alliance that brings a Labour led govt closer? We saw in 2015 that well over a million 2010 LD voters, went to the Tories.

Bizarre as it may seem to us, between 2017 and 2019 1.5million voters defected from Labour direct to the Tories. There are plenty of Labour voters who would rather vote Tory than have the SNP or Greens in positions of power.

It's a really lovely idea to think that the Tories are hated by most of the population, but sadly it's not true, and a formal alliance makes a Tory majority more likely.

What's happening now, with Labour and the Lib Dems having a soft alliance, and Starmer avoiding alienating LD voters is the best way to win an election.

It's not 2010 and Corbyn isn't around. There is no open alliance until after the election.

You think the Lib dems and greens don't side with Labour and form a coalition if they get PR out of it and kick out the Tories as a bonus.

You need to think on that one again.

 

[bluenova]

It's not 2010 and Corbyn isn't around. There is no open alliance until after the election.

You think the Lib dems and greens don't side with Labour and form a coalition if they get PR out of it and kick out the Tories as a bonus.

You need to think on that one again.

I think we agree then - I was replying to the suggesting that "An alliance would be needed pre and post election". I realise things have changed with Starmer and Davey in charge of Labour and the LDs, but it's still five elections in a row where the LDs weren't interested in supporting a Labour minority, and even with their support the combined vote struggles to go much over 50%.

If you do mean an informal agreement to not try too hard in each other's target seats, then I agree. I think that makes a difference without it causing the pushback and vote transfer to the Tories you'd get with a formal one.

It's still a long way from guaranteed though as in many cases it just piles up votes in the wrong areas - and it also needs to be informal. There was some interesting research from YouGov a few years back that suggested the combined vote of Lab+LD+Green could drop by as much as a quarter if they formally stood aside (with Green being by some distance the least popular option).

 

[halfmist]

So that will be a no, you won’t accept that a socialist Labour Party has been comprehensively rejected in the past 2 general elections by the British people and will keep hoping the next election will be different and getting upset when nothing changes instead of bridging the gap between the party and voters to try and actually win an election.

Sure, the conservatives will be in power for another decade and the millions of people will suffer, but you’ve stayed true to democratic socialism so it doesn’t matter.

I am afraid there are many on the left who dominate the politics sub forum cannot accept reality.
They think the answer to getting comprehensively beaten at the last election is to press ahead with a wish list of .. left wing policies that would cost a fortune to implement.
This scares off the moderates in the Electorate as they know in reality the policies have to be paid for by borrowing or by the poor sods who are on PAYE.
Everyone has a conscience and would say yes they would like to live in a fairer Society providing someone else is paying for it.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I am afraid there are many on the left who dominate the politics sub forum cannot accept reality.
They think the answer to getting comprehensively beaten at the last election is to press ahead with a wish list of .. left wing policies that would cost a fortune to implement.
This scares off the moderates in the Electorate as they know in reality the policies have to be paid for by borrowing or by the poor sods who are on PAYE.
Everyone has a conscience and would say yes they would like to live in a fairer Society providing someone else is paying for it.

You were making a reasonable point about the idealism of people like @Rascal until you started quoting thatcherite bollocks.

Seems there isn't just one type of extremist detached from reality in these threads.

 

[halfmist]

The reality is

You were making a reasonable point about the idealism of people like @Rascal until you started quoting thatcherite bollocks.

Seems there isn't just one type of extremist detached from reality in these threads.

The reality always unfolds on election night.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

The reality is

The reality always unfolds on election night.

Not true. An electorate can be persuaded away from reality. Austerity is a policy and practice that isn't based in economic reality but the electorate have voted it in time and again

 

[west didsblue]

I am afraid there are many on the left who dominate the politics sub forum cannot accept reality.
They think the answer to getting comprehensively beaten at the last election is to press ahead with a wish list of .. left wing policies that would cost a fortune to implement.
This scares off the moderates in the Electorate as they know in reality the policies have to be paid for by borrowing or by the poor sods who are on PAYE.
Everyone has a conscience and would say yes they would like to live in a fairer Society providing someone else is paying for it.

Are you counting yourself in amongst the moderates in the electorate?

 

[halfmist]

Are you counting yourself in amongst the moderates in the electorate?

Most certainly. They are all a waste of time, all of them look after themselves.
There is good and bad in all the parties so I will likely opt for the Party that comes up with achievable policies not too far from the centre