PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

[Gone for a Burton]

Why accept anything if we are innocent I say go shit or bust I am sick of all the rubbish being labelled at our club.

“ Once & For All “.......Khaldoon al Mubarak.

This is not a battle, it’s war !!

There will not be a stone unturned when Khaldoon leads his army over the top.

 

[Ric]

It’s been three days since the PL charges and I’m already finding the whole thing pretty draining. Not spending the next three years (potentially) fretting until a judgement is actually made. Fuck that! It’s no good for my mental health for a start. Just want to get back to enjoying football, or at least trying to, again.

Still think that we’ll ultimately prevail again, as at CAS, and that talk of relegation, losing titles etc is fanciful. Fans of other clubs and certain journalists are getting giddy, and things seem grim at the moment, but the story will drift away in the minds of most over the coming weeks and months.

With no immediate threat to the club’s future, I hope we go absolutely balls out in the coming transfer windows and add more trophies to our cabinet. Demonstrate that we’re not going away anytime soon, despite what they wish.

 

[marco]

I haven’t bought a newspaper for years, haven’t listened to TalkSPORT/FiveLive in years and blocked all of their social media accounts. Also blocked rival fans YouTube idiots like the ex Forest fan.

Suggest some do the same, no point harping on about what idiots like Simon Jordan say, he’ll say it because he’s given the platform and TalkSPORT / YouTube idiots want people to reply, it’s what they thrive on.

Ignore them and trust me you’ll feel better about it : )

not heard or read anything in the news as i dont watch it or go looking for it online, all the info is in this thread and the in the knows get it out faster than MSM

 

[dukyblue]

It's all gone very quiet here - from the club and the premier league both, as to the update on the situation at hand.
I want to focus on the football, we all do - but lets get fucking real here!

WE ALL want to be positive but the silence is deafening now, if we are innocent, why would the PL put its whole reputation at risk? the very real risk of them being counter sued for defamation of character and slander should we prove these allegations false.

Were being slaughtered by 100% of the media - NEVER seen anything like this in my life before - WHY CAN'T Khaldoon Al Mubarek make a statement on video in 4 days? or Soriano...thats the shit I'm left with - the voices inside my head that remain when the dust has settled.

Try and ignore the noise in the media. There will be no official commentary from either side, there can't be, with the ongoing proceedings.

This isn't going to be resolved anytime soon.

 

[Mr Edward's shoe mirror]

Think Team Viewer probably fell into the trap that all my United supporting family and friends fall into. Assuming that a large fan base equals loads of cash. That's why they can't understand why City can make money with no fans. But it's probably only the match day fans that have real impact. Sponsors care about exposure. Etihad aren't marketing exclusively to City fans. City games are some of the most watched games and we are the most successful club in the most watched league. That's what creates value to sponsors.

The income generated broadcasting is the result of all the fans. United don't get a proportion of it based on how many United fans their are. Even a fan in the mega store buying a United shirt is giving more money to addidas than United.

Team Viewer were riding high during lockdown with everyone working from home and having to use computers for everything, so loads of people were buying their products, but it suddenly fell off a cliff and the continued profits that they had expected, never materialised. Team viewers share price dropped by four fifths of it's value in the summer. Nothing related to football sponsorship, more a macro-economic environment.

 

[M18CTID]

It's all gone very quiet here - from the club and the premier league both, as to the update on the situation at hand.
I want to focus on the football, we all do - but lets get fucking real here!

WE ALL want to be positive but the silence is deafening now, if we are innocent, why would the PL put its whole reputation at risk? the very real risk of them being counter sued for defamation of character and slander should we prove these allegations false.

Were being slaughtered by 100% of the media - NEVER seen anything like this in my life before - WHY CAN'T Khaldoon Al Mubarek make a statement on video in 4 days? or Soriano...thats the shit I'm left with - the voices inside my head that remain when the dust has settled.

I don't think the media hysteria is much different to when UEFA announced that we'd been banned for 2 years from the CL. We were getting slaughtered by all and sundry back then too. Perhaps this feels worse because we've already cleared our name once at CAS and we thought that it was all behind us, only to be hit with it all again and more.

 

[Woody135]

As someone with audit and financial due diligence experience I find it unfathomable that the revenue or staff costs that we have booked in our accounts are not significantly matched to a signed and iron clad contract.

Given the basis of our revenue we’re heavily weighted to commercial over matchday. Hence that is low quantity sizeable contractual cash flows over a period of time. Theres almost no where to hide, theres either a contract or cash receipt or theres not. Id actually argue it would be much easier to inflate matchday revenue when its made of thousands of £20 fan payments and whos ticking all of those.

And if its in a signed contract with a willing third party its done. Its binding. To have somehow put materially (for it to even be worth discussing millions) more commercial revenue into the accounts without a valid contract will have required a material dereliction of duties on both the audit and fdd side which again I find highly unlikely.

Both the audit and fdd (Silver Lake) will have read and reviewed for example every word of the Etihad, Etisalat, Nissan etc contracts and ticked it to the revenue in the accounts. There is no way we could have recorded materially more or less without someone noticing.

Where the cash has come from obviously cant be proven because MCFC doesnt have the bank statements of Etihad for example. But how Etihad meets its contractual liabilities is their business not that of MCFC.

Thats revenue. For costs its less clear. For revenue youre arguing is what is there real. For costs youre arguing is something missing. Much harder to spot or prove.

Hypothetically MCFC could have arranged for staff to have been paid through a second stream from another company and hence minimised the costs associated to MCFC but again I find it unfathomable that given the professionalism of our management that any such second streams of pay wouldnt have had a contract with a description of the service the staff is providing to that other company.
There is nothing wrong with that and if those services are independent of their role with MCFC then the costs recorded elsewhere are not MCFC costs.

I reacted emotionally when this was all released but when I logically think through what it would have taken to get to this stage and be true, it would be one of the largest sports related financial cover up with collusion industrially across the professional services industry.

I dont see it.
How the arbitration process plays out is to be seen

Given this was well received. Some more context on this to help anyone not aware.

An audit is effectively an opinion from a qualified and experienced auditor that the financial statements that a company prepares are materially true and fair, and are in line with accounting standards and uk law. Material being a key word and that is a £ value that differs from audit to audit.

In our case we arent a profitable business so that isnt the key metric but we are a trading business so I’d assume that the auditors materiality level is a revenue based metric and will likely be calculated as 1-2% of revenue.

Revenue in 09/10 was £125m
Revenue in 17/18 was £500m

Hence in english this means that in 09/10, the auditors have effectively signed off that every single number within those accounts and presented to PL is accurate and free from misstatement (by mistake or deliberately) to within max £2.5m. By 17/18 revenue has grown so the auditors will have signed off that every number is accurate to within max £10m.

To be able to do that on our revenue line (since that seems to be where attention is) they will have at the very least targeted any individual contract of that value or more because if they didn’t and it was wrong there could be a material misstatement. So that pretty much covers every single commercial contract (as well as broadcasting and prize money). And they will have at the very least sample tested everything else (because they are too small to individually result in a material misstatement but could aggregate).
When they tested they will have traced either to a signed contract and/or cash receipt. There are no other options.

Ie in english again. Almost every single £ of commercial revenue we reported will have been agreed to signed contracts and/or cash receipt and the auditors found no issues.

Hence for the charge to be true that our revenue does not present a true and fair view, the auditors will have had to either have not fulfilled their professional duties as auditors and/or our directors will have had to have committed financial fraud to deceive them or in collusion with them. Both are significant claims and should not be dealt with by a premier league internal investigation but are legal cases.

The more likely scenario in my mind is that the financial accounts submitted lawfully as a company are not in question but the PL is effectively taking a moral stance that whilst the accounting is correct, they just dont believe that the revenue has come from a willing third party. Ie yes you have a contract, yes you received the money but we think that money has ultimately come from your owner.

That was the claim made by UEFA and CAS said there was no evidence that had happened. In another process with the same evidence I see no reason why that conclusion would be different.

 

[schfc6]

Super league is back…

 

[waspish]

It’s been three days since the PL charges and I’m already finding the whole thing pretty draining. Not spending the next three years (potentially) fretting until a judgement is actually made. Fuck that! It’s no good for my mental healthy for a start. Just want to get back to enjoying football, or at least trying to, again.

Still think that we’ll ultimately prevail again, as at CAS, and that talk of relegation, losing titles etc is fanciful. Fans of other clubs and certain journalists are getting giddy, and things seem grim at the moment, but the story will drift away in the minds of most over the coming weeks and months.

With no immediate threat to the club’s future, I hope we go absolutely balls out in the coming transfer windows and add more trophies to our cabinet. Demonstrate that we’re not going away anytime soon, despite what they wish.

250m incoming money
500m spent
Net over two season will be 200m

 

[BlueRockape]

It's all gone very quiet here - from the club and the premier league both, as to the update on the situation at hand.
I want to focus on the football, we all do - but lets get fucking real here!

WE ALL want to be positive but the silence is deafening now, if we are innocent, why would the PL put its whole reputation at risk? the very real risk of them being counter sued for defamation of character and slander should we prove these allegations false.

Were being slaughtered by 100% of the media - NEVER seen anything like this in my life before - WHY CAN'T Khaldoon Al Mubarek make a statement on video in 4 days? or Soriano...thats the shit I'm left with - the voices inside my head that remain when the dust has settled.

We have been in worse shit than this mate

FUCK EM

 

[Gray]

Lots of things have messed up our season.

• No left back
• Players off form/wanting to leave
• World Cup
• PGMOL & VAR
• PL Charges

I have pretty well written it off, hoping for better next season whatever fate befalls us in the meantime.

 

[Coatigan]

I was thinking that myself. What triggered the Premier League to investigate us after we won at C A S . It must have been a complaint from other clubs. If the Premier League rules state all clubs have to comply with F.F.P. then why haven't all the clubs that have breached F.F.P. been investigated as they have clearly breached the Premier League rules. There are more than the Scouse gits. These clubs were found guilty and no action was taken as they weren't in European competition at that time.
City should make a formal complaint and demand these clubs be charged for breaking the same rules as they allege we have. Let them get out of that one.

That is the very question, isn't it. With the Spiegel allegations, and uefa opening an investigation, the PL also had to investigate. That I doubt anyone can disagree with that.

Uefa concluding their investigation, and CAS determining their findings wrong, closed the matter and determined we didn't breach FFP. Basic logic would then mean that if we didn't breach Uefa's ffp, we couldn't possibly breach PL's ffp which came into effect 2-3 years later, and more importantly allowed a bigger limit as a basic threshold. If we complied with uefa's ffp as the court says, then there is no chance we didnt also comply with the PL one which allows greater losses.

The PL could have concluded their investigation at that point. On reviewing the findings by a european court for sport, done, we close ours too.

They however continued it for over 2 more years, and looking further back to before ffp was a thing. And if you look at the charges listed, that wasn't just an investigation into ffp rules. It was a full audit. What is the reason for that and what triggered it, because it is more than just a reaponse some claims in a German paper that got hold of some hacked emails, that Europe's highest court for sport has already dismissed.

 

[waspish]

That is the very question, isn't it. With the Spiegel allegations, and uefa opening an investigation, the PL also had to investigate. That I doubt anyone can disagree with that.

Uefa concluding their investigation, and CAS determining their findings wrong, closed the matter and determined we didn't breach FFP. Basic logic would then mean that if we didn't breach Uefa's ffp, we couldn't possibly breach PL's ffp which came into effect 2-3 years later, and more importantly allowed a bigger limit as a basic threshold. If we complied with uefa's ffp as the court says, then there is no chance we didnt also comply with the PL one which allows greater losses.

The PL could have concluded their investigation at that point. On reviewing the findings by a european court for sport, done, we close ours too.

They however continued it for over 2 more years, and looking further back to before ffp was a thing. And if you look at the charges listed, that wasn't just an investigation into ffp rules. It was a full audit. What is the reason for that and what triggered it, because it is more than just a reaponse some claims in a German paper that got hold of some hacked emails, that Europe's highest court for sport has already dismissed.

After cas the premier teams lobbed the premier to keep there investigating going and do a deep dive asking for all our files!

 

[OrigamiNinja]

It’s been three days since the PL charges and I’m already finding the whole thing pretty draining. Not spending the next three years (potentially) fretting until a judgement is actually made. Fuck that! It’s no good for my mental healthy for a start. Just want to get back to enjoying football, or at least trying to, again.

Still think that we’ll ultimately prevail again, as at CAS, and that talk of relegation, losing titles etc is fanciful. Fans of other clubs and certain journalists are getting giddy, and things seem grim at the moment, but the story will drift away in the minds of most over the coming weeks and months.

With no immediate threat to the club’s future, I hope we go absolutely balls out in the coming transfer windows and add more trophies to our cabinet. Demonstrate that we’re not going away anytime soon, despite what they wish.

Do we think the way we spend in the summer will give any clues to how the club feels about the situation?

 

[BringBackSwales]

It's all gone very quiet here - from the club and the premier league both, as to the update on the situation at hand.
I want to focus on the football, we all do - but lets get fucking real here!

WE ALL want to be positive but the silence is deafening now, if we are innocent, why would the PL put its whole reputation at risk? the very real risk of them being counter sued for defamation of character and slander should we prove these allegations false.

Were being slaughtered by 100% of the media - NEVER seen anything like this in my life before - WHY CAN'T Khaldoon Al Mubarek make a statement on video in 4 days? or Soriano...thats the shit I'm left with - the voices inside my head that remain when the dust has settled.

You just need to be patient pal. The club aren’t going to make any statements just to allay our fears, the legal advice would have been clear - make a short, clear and strong rebuttal statement on day 1, and after that say nothing publicly and leave it to the lawyers. That’s how it should be and has to be. Peps demeanour on Friday will be the only mood clue you might get. CITY TIL WE DIE

 

[Bozzie]

In the case of the Swamp Dwellers they should go back to the time of the Busby Babes. Check how many families round the country got new houses, cars, domestic appliances etc. Also check out the Edwards family and how they made their fortune from selling out of date meat to Manchester schools.

My Dad used to mention Dennis Viollett every time they signed someone. He lived opposite the main entrance to Maine Road and, to everyone’s surprise, signed for the rags. His signature was quickly followed by a procession of those fancy new ‘white goods’ arriving at his Mam’s house!

 

[BufordUSABlue]

Woke up this morning and felt a need to write something as a life long Manchester City fan. So much negativity around the club that I love and have watched since 1968.

It has been said in the media world that the truth should never get in the way of a good story. Over the course of my life, 60 years this far, I have seen this to be self evident in many many situations, both sporting and non.

Their job is to sell newspapers, get clicks and stir the pot. It has always been so. It may feel different in this scenario because they are going after our beloved Manchester City but we have been here before and won. .

We know what it feels like to be fucked.To feel like it has all gone tits up.

Halifax in the Cup.
Luton and David Pleat.
Ricky Villa.
Years and years of spankings by the different red shirts. Knowing we were shit and still showing up. We were there, somewhere, having our own experience of being City.

We know what it feels like.

Unlike all of our antagonists, who have dined for a long time at the top table. Who gorged themselves on a cycle of unfettered success. Unchallenged because of the hegemony they created.
They became complacent and stuffed full of themselves and their self important shite. Corrupt and bloated to the core.

They do not know how it feels to lose.

So when we kicked the door down, because it was the only way in, and brought a level of competition they could not live with,they did not have the spine for the fight. None of them. They tried to meet us on the pitch and failed. They tried through UEFA to knock us out and they failed again. So now they resort to the only weapon they have left. Old money. Old power. Friends in high places. The real corruption. Hidden in plain sight.

But they have picked a fight with a club who know how to scrap.We know the pain of losing big and we know how to come back from that.

Dropping 2 divisions.
Dark days and grim gallows humour.That place somewhere in the old ridings where 300,000 of us watched on in the shadows
Then Gillingham. A moment when the future looked so bleak that people walked away from Wembley , muttering "fucking typical City," only to be drawn back by a miracle.
Imagine that we had lost. I did. And I knew we would still be here come the next season.
QPR. Dead and buried. To make matters worse the old enemy winning it all. Again. Not in my lifetime. You think? Another miracle. A big fuck off metaphorical wink from Mario.

Champions.

Only this.

Just the beginning.

This club, players, management and of course us, the supporters, do not ever lie down.This too I have witnessed. Time and time again. We are City.
It is not even about the winning for me. When you have lost so many times you understand the balance of all things more deeply. You know you can always lose and it makes the joy of winning something our red friends will never ever get to experience.

The day Sergio scored was the loudest noise I ever heard in a football ground and I knew why. That banner. That sanctimonious, rub it in our faces spineless bunch of toss perpetrated by the prawn sandwich brigade. The old money. They never saw it coming. Noisy neighbours indeed.

I understood completely and more than ever before what it meant to be a Manchester City fan.
We can lose this current fight and we will still be here. That's what makes us a fucker to fight with. We don't know when we are beaten.

We're Man City.

We'll fight to the end.

Bravo sir bravo

 

[Plays By Sense Of Smell]

Most people go with 'there's no smoke without fire' approach. They can't help themselves
If they hear something repeated in the news or on tv a few times they start to believe it. Then it becomes a fact. But, if you ask them to explain why they believe what they do and provide some facts they will often reply 'there's no smoke without fire' and not consider the possibility that someone may have been wrongly accused or been subjected to a witch hunt.

The reality on most things in life is we all have opinions on things, but in most cases we don't have any facts. We are relying on what we hear or read in the press or what is on tv.

The media have done a job on City and its worked. If City had not had the investment The Shits and The Dippers would have won the PL instead. This tells me where this pressure is coming from.

Yes, human nature is unfortunately so. Too many details to contend wirh so we constantly simplify where we can. And as Daniel Kahneman will testify, thinking 'fast' is a path laden with bias and logic error.

Complete lack of self-awareness about this is another thing though. He's gone down in my estimation somewhat.

As always, follow the money...

 

[feedmpenzaandhewillscore]

Team Viewer were riding high during lockdown with everyone working from home and having to use computers for everything, so loads of people were buying their products, but it suddenly fell off a cliff and the continued profits that they had expected, never materialised. Team viewers share price dropped by four fifths of it's value in the summer. Nothing related to football sponsorship, more a macro-economic environment.

It’s not the first time an organisation has paid over the odds to sponsor United though. Chevrolet did exactly the same thing which resulted in the person from their side in negotiations losing their job. Why does it keep occurring?

 

[mrbelfry]

Team Viewer were riding high during lockdown with everyone working from home and having to use computers for everything, so loads of people were buying their products, but it suddenly fell off a cliff and the continued profits that they had expected, never materialised. Team viewers share price dropped by four fifths of it's value in the summer. Nothing related to football sponsorship, more a macro-economic environment.

I was only talking in regards to sponsorship and why they'd consider a big spend on United. I then talked more broadly about the we have more fans than you so must earn more fallacy