Today's shooting in America thread

Then you will have to focus on drug/gang crime, that had nothing to do with the regular gun/sporting community.
Listening to you, guns are for sport and drugs are for gangs. Saying that is pure dishonesty and lies. In fact, gangs enforce the drug "business" with guns and the innocents pay the price. Drug gangs are the biggest users of guns and are the most responsible for gun crimes. But then again, it's not your problem when the kid's smile is buried forever. You love your guns, why would you care about the child's smile?
 
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I don't know how you solve the problems in your garden. Apparently there are solutions though.
There are solutions, but I don't care for them. If I am going to shoot a bird or animal, I want it dead, not suffering or slowly dying in a trap or by other means. Coyotes are much more deadly and much more of a challenge with few options apart from shooting. I suppose an argument for using a bow could be used, but I'm not at all proficient in using one.

....will not pass legislative muster here in the US.
I can't offer a solution if legislation won't be made to regulate or control firearm ownership. The idea of banning or voluntary self-sacrifice wouldn't materialize either. On average 710 people die from horse riding, I don't think the suggestion of banning horse riding would work either, much like gun ownership.

....gun proliferation is a part of the reason
I'm not convinced that the very basic argument that gun proliferation is the issue is correct. If it were, then it would seem realistic to expect a greater number of mass shootings in other countries.

It does beg the question that if the Canadian government banned the weapons you owned, what would you do?
Ah, an interesting question. They have already banned many types of guns, not that I'm at all interested in owning an AR-15, I have no use for one. Recently I was going to take up pistol shooting, but Prince Trudeau banned the sale of them, so that knocked that idea on the head. It won't affect gun crime in any way, but does appease his peeps.

The Liberals did try to bring in legislation to ban centrefire rifles etc, which would have included one of mine, but back tracked following the reaction. Had it gone through, then I'd have to see what process they put in place. With us having a well regulated gun control system in place, they know what guns I have and they know what ammunition I have bought, when and where from, so it's not as though I can hide it or deny ownership.

I wouldn't voluntarily give up my guns, because there is no reason for me to do so.
The reason is because fewer guns helps solve the problem of gun violence and no guns completely solves the problem of gun violence, as not smoking cigarettes solves the problem of getting cancer from smoking cigarettes.

It's a good thing you don't live where I do. We have coyotes, deer, turkeys, jackrabbits, racoons, squirrels, possums, skunks, mountain lions and bobcats (albeit the last two are quite rare). We aren't allowed to shoot any of them in my town. Big story locally a few years back was a guy who shot a deer that was tearing up his roses and he ended up with a conviction and suspended jail time. How do I keep these pesky creatures away from my roses, my wife's herb and vegetable garden, and my little dog? We built a 6-foot fence surrounding our property. Doesn't help with the turkeys or the squirrels of course, and I have to keep an eye on places where some creatures might try to dig under it. But it keeps the coyotes and deer out, which is the most important.

It's odd that you say "the idea of voluntary self-sacrifice won't materialize either." Whose fault is that?

And I do know two people who voluntarily got rid of their guns when they had kids. But more who didn't. And some who bought guns WHEN they had kids. But fair enough.

Re: the car/horseback riding/etc. etc. comparisons — no other product is designed specifically and only to damage its target. Not a knife -- it has social benefit beyond its use as a weapon. Not a car -- it does too. As do horses. A gun achieves it social benefit only through harm, which is its specifically-designed use. Hence they should be the most heavily-regulated, -restricted and -taxed goods, carry the heaviest penalties for misuse, and carry the highest possible insurance premiums for wielder protection, if they aren't banned. But they aren't and never will be. Once again, it's largely gunowners and organizations they support who prevent that from happening here.

I do think you are probably overly dismissive of the correlation between number of guns (and I assume types of guns) and gun violence in the US relative to other nations. I would also assume ease of access is a huge reason. But, again, these issues exist because of the success of the gun lobby, which is of course, funded by gunowners and manufacturers. It's not logical for non-gunowners to allow gunowners to absolve themselves from blame on this front. Which brings us back full circle to the issue of demand for the product in the first place.
 
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I don't know how you solve the problems in your garden. Apparently there are solutions though.
There are solutions, but I don't care for them. If I am going to shoot a bird or animal, I want it dead, not suffering or slowly dying in a trap or by other means. Coyotes are much more deadly and much more of a challenge with few options apart from shooting. I suppose an argument for using a bow could be used, but I'm not at all proficient in using one.

....will not pass legislative muster here in the US.
I can't offer a solution if legislation won't be made to regulate or control firearm ownership. The idea of banning or voluntary self-sacrifice wouldn't materialize either. On average 710 people die from horse riding, I don't think the suggestion of banning horse riding would work either, much like gun ownership.

....gun proliferation is a part of the reason
I'm not convinced that the very basic argument that gun proliferation is the issue is correct. If it were, then it would seem realistic to expect a greater number of mass shootings in other countries.

It does beg the question that if the Canadian government banned the weapons you owned, what would you do?
Ah, an interesting question. They have already banned many types of guns, not that I'm at all interested in owning an AR-15, I have no use for one. Recently I was going to take up pistol shooting, but Prince Trudeau banned the sale of them, so that knocked that idea on the head. It won't affect gun crime in any way, but does appease his peeps.

The Liberals did try to bring in legislation to ban centrefire rifles etc, which would have included one of mine, but back tracked following the reaction. Had it gone through, then I'd have to see what process they put in place. With us having a well regulated gun control system in place, they know what guns I have and they know what ammunition I have bought, when and where from, so it's not as though I can hide it or deny ownership.

I wouldn't voluntarily give up my guns, because there is no reason for me to do so.
Thank Goodness for Prince Trudeau.
 
With respect to FogBlueInSanFran, although we do sit on opposite sides of the fence on this, he does at least put forward a constructive argument and offer solutions.
I know well that a large number of gunowners are responsible and would be highly unlikely to ever commit a crime with their guns. At the same time, I find nearly all that I know personally who have discussed these issues with me (a few dozen I’d guess) also have a fetish about their weapons which I find a little disturbing. I would suggest that the seductive power gun ownership brings is probably connected to a dopamine rush. Periodically it borders on obsessive-compulsiveness or on behavio(u)rs not dissimilar to what is see in alcoholics and gamblers. There is quite likely an addiction component for some.
 
Listening to you, guns are for sport and drugs are for gangs. Saying that is pure dishonesty and lies. In fact, gangs enforce the drug "business" with guns and the innocents pay the price. But then again, it's not your problem when the kid's smile is buried forever. You love your guns, why would you care about the child's smile?
You're making some ridiculous statements.

"You love your guns, why would you care about a child's smile".
You have absolutely no idea what my cares or thoughts are, so please don't direct such garbage in my direction.

A government can enforce as much regulation as it wants, regulation that affects the regular gun owning community, but will have little effect on the criminal world unless directly targeted in some way by law enforcement. Trudeaus recent ban on the purchase of hand guns will have no effect on gun crime, a view even supported by the police.

This in turn has little to do with the mass shootings under discussion in the US.
 
No it doesn't.

Perhaps you should provide an answer to my question asking why other countries with strong gun ownership, yet have effective regulation and gun control, DO NOT have the same mass shooting issues that the US do, instead of spouting off hysterically adding no solutions or ideas to the problem, except 'ban guns!!'

With respect to FogBlueInSanFran, although we do sit on opposite sides of the fence on this, he does at least put forward a constructive argument and offer solutions.

Why don't you give that a go and provide an answer to my question above. I put it in bold to make it easier for you.
Ok, I'll answer it. You keep banging on about strong gun ownership, but the US has the strongest gun ownership in the world; this has been statistically true for years. I'll leave a graph to make it easier for you:

Screenshot_20230330_163748_Samsung Internet.jpg

Look at the US, see how it's pretty much pitch black? That's because it has higher gun ownership than anywhere; let's assume it was the colour of France, or Germany, let's assume the US was that navy blue colour...do you not think mass shootings would significantly reduce if it were? Of course they fucking would. The premise of your argument seems to be "the ratio between gun ownership and mass shootings in the US doesn't perfectly match that of Canada, ergo gun ownership is not the issue", which is lunacy. Gun ownership is the issue. All these massacres take place because gun ownership is blackly prevalent (as shown by the graph) and commonplace. Again, were the colour of the US a lighter shade, you can take away at least one of Columbine, Sandy Hook, Uvalde, Nashville etc.

Something you seem oblivious to is that this high percentage of gun ownership feeds the culture of mass shooting. Guns are basically an everyday staple of American households; bread, milk, guns. And a gun isn't there to provide sustenance like food and drink, it's there to kill. Is it any surprise so many killings occur when guns are the make-up of Americana? I reiterate the point I made the other day, no civilian should be able to carry a firearm. They should be reserved for the military, police, and any other relevant security forces.

In the grand scheme of things, a few of your vegetables being ravaged by a hungry squirrel is of less consequence than a child being murdered while they learn their multiplication tables. You not getting a lamb chop on someone's table isn't the same as a parent living in fear of waving their child off for the last time.

And as I've answered your question, maybe you could answer mine, which you conveniently ignored days ago. What would your opinion be if one of your loved ones became just another of these statistics?
 
You're making some ridiculous statements.

"You love your guns, why would you care about a child's smile".
You have absolutely no idea what my cares or thoughts are, so please don't direct such garbage in my direction.

A government can enforce as much regulation as it wants, regulation that affects the regular gun owning community, but will have little effect on the criminal world unless directly targeted in some way by law enforcement. Trudeaus recent ban on the purchase of hand guns will have no effect on gun crime, a view even supported by the police.

This in turn has little to do with the mass shootings under discussion in the US.
If you think that children are not dying from legally-purchased/owned guns, then there is no point in discussing the matter with you. Also, I didn't know the mass shootings in the US you were discussing were about shooting ... stuffed dolls.
 
I am NOT part of the problem.

You are proposing an idealistic, unrealistic and unworkable option, when other options have been proven to work while still allowing gun ownership.

Perhaps other options adopted by many other countries in the world wouldn't work in the US, I don't know, but in my view, based on the evidence elsewhere, it would be a place to start if there was a desire to.

Me owning a gun in this country is not a problem to anybody and the facts are there for you to see.

Give up your pathetic gun/s

Your excuse because you desperately need one to help with animals attacking your garden is a load of waffle

Tell your family and friends to get rid of theirs aswell - do some good in the world
 
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Give up your pathetic gun/s

Your excuses because you desperately need one to help with animals attacking your garden is a load of waffle

Tell your family and friends to get rid of theirs aswell - do some good in the world
How the fuck is a farmer in Southern Ontario giving up his gun going to do any good in the world?
You fucking simpleton.
 
How the fuck is a farmer in Southern Ontario giving up his gun going to do any good in the world you fucking simpleton.

All gun crazy yanks have an excuse why they need their guns

He could be living on the moon for all I care.
No citizen needs a gun, give them up and campaign for others to do the same and it’s a force for good.
 
How the fuck is a farmer in Southern Ontario giving up his gun going to do any good in the world?
Because a change in the demand curve begins with not buying the product in the first place. And the most logical place to make the self-sacrifical ask is with rational, law-abiding folks, not with lunatic-fringers.

To be fair Slips has been kind enough to wade into this fray with his views when he didn't have to, so while it seems like I'm challenging him in particular, my thoughts on the topic could apply to any rational, law-abiding gunowner (and I've adressed the two self-outed gunowners on this thread as well).

Plus you know all well-meaning Yanks secretly would move to Canada in a second if we could get a job there and it wasn't cold enough to freeze your fucking nuts off three-quarters of the year.
 
The reason is because fewer guns helps solve the problem of gun violence and no guns completely solves the problem of gun violence, as not smoking cigarettes solves the problem of getting cancer from smoking cigarettes.

It's a good thing you don't live where I do. We have coyotes, deer, turkeys, jackrabbits, racoons, squirrels, possums, skunks, mountain lions and bobcats (albeit the last two are quite rare). We aren't allowed to shoot any of them in my town. Big story locally a few years back was a guy who shot a deer that was tearing up his roses and he ended up with a conviction and suspended jail time. How do I keep these pesky creatures away from my roses, my wife's herb and vegetable garden, and my little dog? We built a 6-foot fence surrounding our property. Doesn't help with the turkeys or the squirrels of course, and I have to keep an eye on places where some creatures might try to dig under it. But it keeps the coyotes and deer out, which is the most important.

It's odd that you say "the idea of voluntary self-sacrifice won't materialize either." Whose fault is that?

And I do know two people who voluntarily got rid of their guns when they had kids. And more who didn't. And some who bought guns WHEN they had kids. But fair enough.

Re: the car/horseback riding/etc. etc. comparisons — no other product is designed specifically and only to damage its target. Not a knife -- it has social benefit beyond its use as a weapon. Not a car -- it does too. As do horses. A gun achieves it social benefit only through harm, which is its specifically-designed use. Hence they should be the most heavily-regulated, -restricted and -taxed goods, carry the heaviest penalties for misuse, and carry the highest possible insurance premiums for wielder protection, if they aren't banned. But they aren't and never will be. Once again, it's largely gunowners and organizations they support who prevent that from happening here.

I do think you are probably overly dismissive of the correlation between number of guns (and I assume types of guns) and gun violence in the US relative to other nations. I would also assume ease of access is a huge reason. But, again, these issues exist because of the success of the gun lobby, which is of course, funded by gunowners and manufacturers. It's not logical for non-gunowners to allow gunowners to absolve themselves from blame on this front. Which brings us back full circle to the issue of demand for the product in the first place.
I think that if the US has a mass shooting problem, then there are things to consider that would be worthwhile pursuing.

If other countries have guns, then why don't they have these issues, what do they do that works for them?

None have banned guns (as far as I know).

The common denominator appears to be regulation and control.

The prohibition of certain types of weapons.
Licensing and tracking of firearms and ammunition.
Knowledge and safety education.
Police checks on the people applying for the licence before granting.
Revoking the licence and confiscation of the firearms in the event of mental health, behavioural and violent issues.
Regulations for firearm storage.
Regulations on where firearms can be used.
Regulations on travel requirements.

Gun owners throughout the world have no problem working within these regulations.

Now, applying this to an American culture will be a challenge, but it could be achievable if those in government actually wanted to do something constructive.
 
Because a change in the demand curve begins with not buying the product in the first place. And the most logical place to make the self-sacrifical ask is with rational, law-abiding folks, not with lunatic-fringers.

To be fair Slips has been kind enough to wade into this fray with his views when he didn't have to, so while it seems like we're picking on him my thoughts on the topic could apply to any rational, law-abiding gunowner (and I've adressed the two others here as well).
Mate, I've been reading this thread for the past couple of days and know that you have been having an intelligent conversation with him but the thread is littered with people who's entire argument is based on their inability to read.
 
How the fuck is a farmer in Southern Ontario giving up his gun going to do any good in the world?
You fucking simpleton.
They're all trying to be more outraged than the next, stupid doesn't begin to describe them. I grew up working on farms in England, they all had lots of shotguns and the odd .22
 
Because a change in the demand curve begins with not buying the product in the first place. And the most logical place to make the self-sacrifical ask is with rational, law-abiding folks, not with lunatic-fringers.

To be fair Slips has been kind enough to wade into this fray with his views when he didn't have to, so while it seems like I'm challenging him in particular, my thoughts on the topic could apply to any rational, law-abiding gunowner (and I've adressed the two self-outed gunowners on this thread as well).

Plus you know all well-meaning Yanks secretly would move to Canada in a second if we could get a job there and it wasn't cold enough to freeze your fucking nuts off three-quarters of the year.
So true. So so true.
 
Thank Goodness for Prince Trudeau.
But Trudeau's ban on handguns will do nothing to reduce gun crime, absolutely nothing. It's a media/political stunt.

The efforts should be on stopping or reducing the smuggling of firearms across the border, but he ducks that issue because it's a tough one to get long term success with.

Best go with the easy option that can be spun as effective gun control improvements.
 

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