Ref Watch

[Bluearmy]

It will never go back, of course, but the "corruption" hasn't gone away, it has just adapted. And I am sure I could show many examples of clear mistakes that haven't been corrected by VAR, or goals that have been ruled out, or not, for ridiculous 1mm decisions depending on who is playing, if I had the energy.

But, on balance, do I think the benefits of VAR outweigh the negatives? Not really. It should be better, but I am not hopeful.

I know the corruption hasnt gone away. You only have to look at our last game to see it. Thankfully the bent tw@t was kept in check. Something that wouldnt have happened if no VAR

If mm is ridiculous then whats 3.30 meters looked upon as?!

 

[SebastianBlue]

I know the corruption hasnt gone away. You only have to look at our last game to see it. Thankfully the bent tw@t was kept in check. Something that wouldnt have happened if no VAR

If mm is ridiculous then whats 3.30 meters look upon as?!

Yeah, with VAR we got two clear penalties… ;-)

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

That’s the stance of most critics of VAR.

It’s not going away, it hasn’t been as positively impactful as many VAR proponents claim, and it needs significant reform.

And I would argue that the ludicrous implementation of VAR and the modification/interpretation of the rules in the PL especially to support it has actually created more suspicion of corruption than existed previously, because VAR was meant to reduce the frequency of the most contentious decisions, but has instead highlighted them via ridiculous levels of inconsistency between outcomes involving similar incidents.

Before the inconsistency resulting in suspect decisions could be rationally explained by different officials having to make split second decisions with very limited information.

But know they do the same practically every game (in the case of matches like Spurs v Brighton and our derby this season, multiple times in a game), despite having substantially more time and information to make the decisions.

And there is no accountability for the repeated “mistakes”, barring many public apologies from PGMOL that do absolutely nothing to make the victimised parties whole. Literally millions of dollars ride on these decisions—meaning many clubs are materially impacted by these “mistakes”—but that financial impact will never be addressed. I think specifically of clubs like Wolves and Brighton who have been on the end of numerous “mistakes” this season, and will likely suffer several more “mistakes” by the time the season finishes.

This is a substantial flaw and lends itself to reasonable suspicion of corruption. That is because repeated incompetence—with no real effort to correct it—becomes corruption.

However it is implemented it will always have an element of subjectivity (as we see week-in-week-out with handball decisions in the penalty are - the latest 'too congested' excuse is a cracker). And until they address the margin of error issue with offside then it has no credibility with me.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I know the corruption hasnt gone away. You only have to look at our last game to see it. Thankfully the bent tw@t was kept in check. Something that wouldnt have happened if no VAR

If mm is ridiculous then whats 3.30 meters look upon as?!

Again. You don't know that he wouldn't have given the handball in different circumstances. An on-field referee making decisions transparently and consistently under simplified rules with actual insight into decision making, properly and independently assessed and with some degree of accountability would solve a lot of the issues. VAR can be a part of that. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if that handball wasn't given as long as the decisions in similar situations were consistent.

As for a three metre mistake, I would say that is a rare "clear and obvious" mistake (which hasn't been eliminated by VAR by the way) and I would say a 1mm offside is a misinterpretation of, in the first place, the purpose of the off-side law and, secondly, is an unwelcome deviation from giving benefit of the doubt to the attacker. If it can't be seen, or assessed, by the naked eye as a clear off-side in real time or, in the case of VAR, without those damn lines, then let it go.

 

[blue b4 the moon]

There was a lot of fuss about the Spurs Brighton game last week and the number of poor decisions that Brighton were on the end of. This was nothing compared to a City game at Goodison Park officiated by Peter Walton in January 2012 just prior to him jumping ship to oversea referring abroad. He was truly awful and refused to give any one of 4 nailed on penalties as City dominated Everton but went on to lose 1- 0.

Walton had a suspicious history of referring games involving City, and especially against Everton. From his Premier League debut in 2003/2004 his record with us in 13 games was W3 D4 L6. No wins with him in his last 4 seasons, which coincides with the ADUG ownership of MCFC.

Season 2003/2004 officiated a total of 5 PL games........1 game involving City
Charlton (H) 1-1 draw

Season 2004/2005 officiated a total of 14 PL games........1 game involving City
Arsenal (H) lost 1-2 LEAGUE CUP

Season 2005/2006 officiated a total of 13 PL games........2 games involving City
Sunderland (A) 1-2 win
Fulham (H) lost 1-2

Season 2006/2007 officiated a total of 16 PL games........NO games involving City

Season 2007/2008 officiated a total of 23 PL games........2 games involving City
West Ham (A) win 0-2
Bolton (H) win 4-2

Season 2008/2009 officiated a total of 26 PL games........1 game involving City
Liverpool (H) lost 2-3

Season 2009/2010 officiated a total of 27 PL games........2 games involving City
Liverpool (H) drew 0-0
Everton (H) lost 0-2

Season 2010/2011 officiated a total of 26 PL games........3 games involving City
Stoke (A) drew 1-1
Everton (H) lost 1-2
Fulham (H) drew 1-1

Season 2011/2012 - officiated a total of 15 PL games........1 game involving City
Everton (A) lost 1-0

If this pattern isn`t suspicious I don`t know what is. There worst referee to cross our paths in my time.

I'm amazed he only did 3 Everton City games, seemed to be on both every season for years.

 

[Bluesbrother]

I believe Refs do see the fouls and hand balls in the area and then don't give anything. They know it will be looked at by VAR and I wouldn't be surprised that they are told to do this. The excuse they then can use is no clear and obvious mistake

 

[northendenton]

Ref for the Munich game is called Turpin. 'Kinell.

Not Ben Turpin is it lol

 

[SebastianBlue]

Looking forward to the novel way Dermot ‘It was about right’ Gallagher explains the mid season handball rule change.

On cue…

Both Sue Smith and Stephen Warnock agreed with Steve Cooper (and every other person that has read the handball rules and seen how they have been interpreted in other similar incidents in the league) that it was a definite penalty.

 

[blueinsa]

Rename ref watch to gaslighting hour.

Poor ref and VAR having to deal with a congested box lol

 

[Bluearmy]

Again. You don't know that he wouldn't have given the handball in different circumstances. An on-field referee making decisions transparently and consistently under simplified rules with actual insight into decision making, properly and independently assessed and with some degree of accountability would solve a lot of the issues. VAR can be a part of that. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if that handball wasn't given as long as the decisions in similar situations were consistent.

As for a three metre mistake, I would say that is a rare "clear and obvious" mistake (which hasn't been eliminated by VAR by the way) and I would say a 1mm offside is a misinterpretation of, in the first place, the purpose of the off-side law and, secondly, is an unwelcome deviation from giving benefit of the doubt to the attacker. If it can't be seen, or assessed, by the naked eye as a clear off-side in real time or, in the case of VAR, without those damn lines, then let it go.

Of course he wouldnt give the handball. Not for us anyhow. If by different circumstances you mean ofher teams, i’d agree. He would give it in a shot for a red shirt team!!

Show me in the law where it states you can be nearly onside so goals should stand or benefit of the doubt should be given to an attacker…. What your advocating is for officials to ignore the laws as they are written, even more than they do already…. You seriously think thats going to help?

Its not a one off, liverpool (oh what a surprise a red shirt team) this season had a similar incident which cost Wolves their FA Cup place.

Its a shit show wIth the checks and balances of VAR. Giving them free reign would be a disaster for us!!

 

[simmo]

Ref for the Munich game is called Turpin. 'Kinell.

He was ref for the most hyped up game this season in the Europa League involving a red team and Barcelona.

 

[richardtheref]

Yes, it should have been a free kick in my opinion also. No problem with anyone saying the referee was at fault for missing that. But the guy I was replying to was criticising the VAR for not stepping in and telling the referee to give a free kick ( if he agreed it was a foul outside the box) Which I would have thought any qualified referee would know is not something a VAR has within his remit to do.

I know VAR could not go back and tell him it was a free kick outside the box. All I was saying was that it should have been reviewed for the foul being in or out the box and therefore a penalty. Between VAR & the on field official they got it wrong

 

[wattle]

The Arsenal and Scouse boards have agenda threads that we have every ref in our pocket. I'm not kidding either, Absolutely convinced that game after game decisions are going our way and the brown envelopes we dish out must be in the hundreds.

 

[glyncity]

Another howler in favour of the red shirts , Trent Alexander Arnold clearly moves his arm towards the ball in the build up to the first goal against Leeds , seems obvious it's going to be disallowed by VAR , apparently not , the zero tolerance for handball in the build up to a goal rule only seems to apply to some teams

 

[halfcenturyup]

Of course he wouldnt give the handball. Not for us anyhow. If by different circumstances you mean ofher teams, i’d agree. He would give it in a shot for a red shirt team!!

Show me in the law where it states you can be nearly onside so goals should stand or benefit of the doubt should be given to an attacker…. What your advocating is for officials to ignore the laws as they are written, even more than they do already…. You seriously think thats going to help?

Its not a one off, liverpool (oh what a surprise a red shirt team) this season had a similar incident which cost Wolves their FA Cup place.

Its a shit show wIth the checks and balances of VAR. Giving them free reign would be a disaster for us!!

Yeh, OK. I don't want to turn this thread into one man ranting at the moon, but I didn't mean a different club by different circumstances, I meant without the VAR backstop. Referees aren't giving easy, but important, decisions on the pitch because they know VAR will look at them. The problem is that by doing that, they are raising the bar on how VAR can overrule a "decision". The protocol is stupid. It confuses not making a decision with making one. Fwiw, I don't buy this argument that the system is out to get us, per se. Every fan of every club has that and always will, no matter how good the system. But I do believe matches are being manipulated to maintain interest in the "product". If not, why did it take two minutes to review the handball at the weekend? It was as clear and obvious under the present rules as it can get, yet they tried their best to find any way not to allow it including, according to the commentators, who apparently have access to what is going on, reviewing the build up to see if they could disallow it for anything else.

As for giving benefit of the doubt to the attacker, every modification to the off-side law and to its implementation is to benefit the attacker and not disallow goals unless they have to because, as Wenger said, the purpose of football is to score goals and the excitement in football is in celebrating goals. Phases of play, deliberate/ accidental plays and the rest. All to benefit the attacker, and then they disallow goals that no-one had a problem with because someone's toenail was offside because of where they are in their stride pattern in the frame that they randomly choose as the moment the ball was played. It's just ridiculous.

I am completely in favour of sticking with on-field decisions but only as part of a complete revamp of the process, including transparency, improved consistency, performance evaluation and clear accountability. All wrapped up in independent oversight. VAR can be a part of that, but for your 3m mistakes, not the 1mm ones, imo.

 

[TonyColemansbagofapples]

Ref for the Munich game is called Turpin. 'Kinell.

Without trying to jinx it, I reckon he’s possibly the best around at the moment. We could do with him in the final, especially as Lahoz is still knocking about.

 

[Dirty Harry]

Rename ref watch to gaslighting hour.

Summed up perfectly for me, I’m embarrassed for them at times.

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Without trying to jinx it, I reckon he’s possibly the best around at the moment. We could do with him in the final, especially as Lahoz is still knocking about.

That fucker has retired more times than Frank Sinatra.

I'd hope we have a big fat dossier on the twat that we can wave around to get him away from the final should we get there.

 

[BerkshireBlue]

Another howler in favour of the red shirts , Trent Alexander Arnold clearly moves his arm towards the ball in the build up to the first goal against Leeds , seems obvious it's going to be disallowed by VAR , apparently not , the zero tolerance for handball in the build up to a goal rule only seems to apply to some teams

they've been pretty consistent with this. I've only seen one goal disallowed for a handball by a non goal scoring player and that was Mahrez in the CL.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Atwell's going to get a warm welcome on Saturday, isn't he?