Middle East Conflict

blue5ter said:
You just accused a country of breaking all the international rules in the book but then admit you can't name a single specific law they are breaking. That's hatred in my book. I like to deal in those pesky little things called facts. I know they are annoying, but when I feel the entire jewish race is being unfairly accused of things they aren't guilty of, whilst fighting an enemy who as recently as yesterday evening stated on TV they wanted to keep repeating the Oct 7th masssacre until all jews are destroyed, it seems reasonable to want to stick to facts. Or do you not agree ?
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Good luck with some on here with the facts part mate. Opinion and conjecture aplenty though.
 
blue5ter said:
Here's the Guardian's take on Human Shields. It's not exactly a publication known for it's pro-Israeli stance, so one assumes you'll think it has some relevance https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...under-hospital-palestinian-civilian-gaza-city
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Hamas are a terrorist organisation intent on murder and don’t adhere to international law. We all know that.
However Israel are no saints and never have been.
I’m totally secular and although I understand the circumstances after the Second World War that led to the granting of the Israeli state, I find the idea of setting up a Jewish state and removing the people who already lived there, totally flawed.
Maybe it’s me not understanding Jewish and Judaism. Jewish being a culture perhaps and not a religion, but Ben Gurion declared it a Jewish state, which is non inclusive in my mind.
Regardless though, the neighbours took exception and through war the original borders changed.
Since 1967 however it looks to the objective outside world that there has been an expansionist agenda and every opportunity has been taken, using any excuse no matter how unjustified the objective outside world find it.

Israel are in violation of quite a few international rules.
Have a look.
You may not like the source, but they say where they are drawing information from.
 
blue5ter said:
No problem, here's the Geneva convention. You should probably start with article 4
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.33_GC-IV-EN.pdf
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They have been breaking article 49 for decades with illegal occupation and forced evictions to allow settlers to emigrate to palestinian territory.

Also the blockage of the med and land routes is a violation of international law and the UNWRA, Red Cross, Red Cressent, human rights watch and amnesty have all said it has been a violation of Article 33 of the GC

The ICC regocnises Gaza and the West Bank as members and as such any evidence that humanitarian aid has been restricted, civilian populated areas have been targeted for attack intentionally or any continied occupation andd settlement in the area captured will break Imternational human rights laws and Israel government officials could be subject to arrest overseas for crimes if it can be proved laws habe been broken.

Equally the ICC has said October the 7th attacks break international law and any Hamas leaders captured should face war crime trials in the hague.

Hamas and Likud have both broken Internatiobal law and both should be prosecuted for war crimes.

The two states and their general populations should not be tarnished for the fanatical zealolts leading then
 
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urban genie said:
They have been breaking article 49 for decades with illegal occupation and forced evictions to allow settlers to emigrate j to palestinian territory.

Also the blockage of the med and land routes is a violation of international law and the UNWRA, Red Cross, Red Cressent, human rights watch and amnesty have all aud it has been a violation of Article 33 of the GC

The ICC regocnises Gaza and the West Bank as members and as such any evidence that humanitarian aid has been restricted, civilian populated areas have been targeted for attack intentionally or any continied occupation andd settlement in the area captured will break Imternational himan rights laws and Israel government officials could be subject to arrest overseas for crimes if it can be proved laws habe been broken.

Equally the ICC has said October the 7th atracks vreak international law amd any Hamas leaders captured should face war crime trials in the hague.

Hamas and Likud have both broken Internatiobal law and both should be prosecuted for war crimes.

The two states and their feneral populations should not be tarnished for the fanatical zealolts leading then
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Well said.
I find the constant vilification of anyone who is critical of Israel’s actions as support of Hamas and/or antisemitism not only tedious, disingenuous, illogical but without self awareness in many instances.
 
blue5ter said:
Here's the Guardian's take on Human Shields. It's not exactly a publication known for it's pro-Israeli stance, so one assumes you'll think it has some relevance https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...under-hospital-palestinian-civilian-gaza-city
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I think we all know what human shields are, how Hamas are using them and why they breach IHR. We also know that none of that absolves the Israelis from taking all reasonable precautions to protect civilian life. Nearly 10,000 civilian lives so far tells me they aren't.

You can't just bomb hospitals, refugee camps and schools because they are being used wrongly. For two reasons: first, in most circumstances, that in itself breaches IHR; secondly, because it's exactly what Hamas want. It's tough on Israel and it makes their "job" harder but them's the rules unless the Israelis want to be just as inconsiderate about human life as Hamas. You may be happy with that. I suspect most people are less so.
 
Username Required said:
If Netanyahu is guilty of facilitating the rise of Hamas so as to play them off against Fatah and make a two-state solution impossible then when he is going to be held to account?
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Hopefully as soon as this is over and he gets voted out. He already escaped prosecution once and it shouldn’t happen again. He’s spent the last year trying to water down the powers of the judiciary rather than effectively running the country and this was part of the distraction that allowed Hamas to mount such a murderous attack.
He’s a ****.
 
Username Required said:
If Netanyahu is guilty of facilitating the rise of Hamas so as to play them off against Fatah and make a two-state solution impossible then when he is going to be held to account?
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Shortly after he has been found to have deliberately ignored warnings about the Hamas attack for his own political ends, would be my guess.
 
blue5ter said:
When you say zionist, do you mean all 16 million jews on the planet (because for many, zionist is codeword for jew) or just the estimated 10 million+ jews who identify as zionist ?

Did you even think for one minute how offensive your post is to jews ?

Do you know what zionism is ?

I suggest you look it up

There is of course no one single definition of zionism, but these seem to be the commonly accepted ones

The Oxford Living Dictionaries says Zionists believe in “the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel”. The Board of Deputies of British Jews describes Zionism as “the national liberation movement of the Jewish people.” The non-Zionist left-wing Jewish group Jewdas have defined it simply as “the belief that there should be a Jewish state in Israel”.

So according to you, in your words, the underlying fact is people who believe in the above are following a racist and supremacist ideology

And what about the people in the Middle East who are opposed to zionism, i.e. opposed to the existence of any jewish state. Are they non-racist and non-supremacist ? You know, the people whose life mission is to destroy all jews.
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Even if he's left the thread, others may appreciate a more informed understanding of Zionism. Never mind a single definition of Zionism, it would help to know about all the different historical varieties of Zionism - including those not just after a "national home" but a restoration of the largest area that "Israel" held in Biblical times, not just the river (Jordan) to the sea but the river Nile to the river Euphrates. And (by modern standards certainly) it's hard not to see describing Asians as "barbarians" compared to Europeans as just a wee bit racist.

Herzl’s Troubled Dream: The Origins of Zionism | History Today

www.historytoday.com www.historytoday.com
 
One thing that worries me about this conflict is that I get the feeling that those in charge are more interested in the past and the future than the present.
We had Netanyahu, albeit a political play, talking about some Jewish hero from before Jesus's time. And then Hamas militants sacrificing themselves for a future in heaven.

Both sides seem to have s long game in mind. I think Netanyahu believes that when in 200 years Israel stretches from the Euphrates to the Mediterranean, he will be remembered as one of the architects of this triumph.
Likewise Hamas, Hezbollah believe at some point Israel will just disappear, presumably when the US's power wains. In the meantime they just have to keep fighting, committing crimes that keep Israel doing stuff that will degrade its international standing.

Essentially there are some very unhinged people running things.
I have to say even when I stayed in Jerusalem, well before the first intifada, I didn't feel comfortable there. Too much religion. Despite the sunshine it had a very oppressive feeling.
What it is like now I can't imagine.
 
Dax777 said:
If you are into those pesky things called facts then perhaps you shouldn't engage in hyperbole. The entire Jewish race is not being accused of things they aren't guilty of. The nation of Israel and it's army the IDF are being accused of things.

So if you are going to request sticking to facts from Katz, it's best you do the same. And this is coming from someone who is no fan of Katz and who Katz is not fond of.

But if we are going to preach it, then let's be about it.
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But I didn't;t say that

I said that Hamas wanted to erase the entire jewish race. I referenced Israel earlier in my post.
 
Dax777 said:
If you are into those pesky things called facts then perhaps you shouldn't engage in hyperbole. The entire Jewish race is not being accused of things they aren't guilty of. The nation of Israel and it's army the IDF are being accused of things.

So if you are going to request sticking to facts from Katz, it's best you do the same. And this is coming from someone who is no fan of Katz and who Katz is not fond of.

But if we are going to preach it, then let's be about it.
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I can’t tell if you genuinely think @kaz7 is called Katz or it’s some sort of commentary on her obsession with cats.
 
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