Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

[trueblue1972]

How many times are you going to repeat this mantra. It's bollocks and you know it.

In your opinion

 

[Roachy]

I've already explained that I don't think it is proportionate. If you can explain to me how this is justified I'd really like to hear it?

So what is proportionate in your opinion? You raised the subject so what do you think the realistic alternatives are.

 

[robbieh]

In your opinion

Not in my opinion. He keeps saying Hamas started this war. My contention is the war did not start on October 7th, any more than the Israelis started it by killing over 200 people in the west bank this year, or the increasing settler violence.
This war has been ongoing for a long time.

 

[Complex Simplicity]

So what is proportionate in your opinion? You raised the subject so what do you think the realistic alternatives are.

Stop the indiscriminate bombing. United Nations said it perfectly. War crimes are being committed. The bombing of apartment blocks with hundreds of people in them is not proportionate. The bombing of hospitals, schools and universities is proportionate. The entire infrastructure of the country and the death of over 11,000, half of which are children cannot be justified. This isn't a war, this is a destruction of a people.

 

[Complex Simplicity]

And yet if Hamas hadn't attacked this war wouldn't have started.

This has been 70 years in the making. Every 10 years Israel bombard the Gaza Strip. If Israel had followed international law, and stayed within their 1948 borders this would not be happening today and Hamas wouldn't have been created. Sometimes you have to look at the disease, and not the symptoms. Every incursion and more land is taken. This latest one will be exactly the same. Israel will cut the Gaza Strip in half, and keep the land in between giving them access to Mediterranean sea.

This is the reality.

 

[trueblue1972]

Not in my opinion. He keeps saying Hamas started this war. My contention is the war did not start on October 7th, any more than the Israelis started it by killing over 200 people in the west bank this year, or the increasing settler violence.
This war has been ongoing for a long time.

The whole area has been a shit show forever Isreal neighbours and isreal have done dreadful things to each other, some seem to want to be oblivious to those of one side .
One thing is for sure if hamms hadn't done what they did half of Gaza wouldn't be flat now . What shocks me if that people that apparently care about innocemt palestians try ans deflect this away from Hammas and to me this suggests they hate isreal more than they care for Palestinians

 

[M16 citeh]

And yet if Hamas hadn't attacked this war wouldn't have started.

So this whole thing started on October 7th then? Very selective history...

 

[Ducado]

Netanyahu was a product of israel kicking back , it doesn't make what he has done correct , but just in as much as people can argue that hammas attack was a product of oppression Netanyahu was a product of attacks on Israel

Kind of true, but the kicker was the attacks were mainly from Hamas and we know how Hamas was started and nurtured he created a monster for his own political needs and now the monster is out of control it's an age old story and cautionary tale

What's worse is no one knows how this all ends, and that's a disaster for the region in general and the West is not immune

 

[halfcenturyup]

Why do you get so affronted with this? It's a relevant question to ask someone in response to their comments. It's going to keep being asked I'm afraid so either get used to it or ignore it, easy either way for me

I don't put people on ignore, why would I? And I am not easily affronted. I just think you are trolling now.

 

[trueblue1972]

Kind of true, but the kicker was the attacks were mainly from Hamas and we know how Hamas was started and nurtured he created a monster for his own political needs and now the monster is out of control it's an age old story and cautionary tale

What's worse is no one knows how this all ends, and that's a disaster for the region in general and the West is not immune

I agree , but would Nayanthu have had that power in the first place if isreal wasn't kicking back , its a terrible situation but it can't be looked at in isolation, unless of corse people chose too

 

[Roachy]

So this whole thing started on October 7th then? Very selective history...

The problem is most people benchmark a historical timeframe or occurrence that suits their narrative.

 

[Ducado]

I agree , but would Nayanthu have had that power in the first place if isreal wasn't kicking back , its a terrible situation but it can't be looked at in isolation, unless of corse people chose too

None of it can be locked at in isolation it's a complex and bloody situation

 

[jacko74]

There's a huge difference between knowing the capability of your opponents and knowing when that capability is to be used.
The planning for Oct 7 was totally off grid.
At the moment Hamas is using phone apps etc. More fool them as the IDF can work out where every end point is - even when you can't read the encrypted communications.
A salutory lesson in relying on your intelligence toys

From what I've read Israel/Mosaad has heavily infiltrated Hamas and have plenty of informants on the inside, some very highly placed within the organisation. They aren't entirely reliant eavesdropping technology.

 

[Ducado]

Ultimately the beneficiaries of this horror show are sat back laughing at the chaos it's causing, Russia, China and Iran all benefit, because until a peaceful settlement comes about the US is engaged where it doesn't want to be

They are just going to keep the pot boiling, it's a war that can't be won I am afraid

 

[cucumberman]

In your opinion

Not in my opinion, because the Oct 7 is in retaliation as how Hamas said it of the Al-Aqsa attack this year.

There are many attacks rolling back decades even before Hamas came to be from Nakba to Naksa and all others. This year was their announcement in retaliation of the Al-Aqsa attack on Palestinian civilians

Palestinian civilians was in Al-Aqsa to celebrate their Ramadhan holy days. It was all eventful, until the IDF barged in, shot at civilians, threw stun grenades, and stomped and hit with batons to unarmed civilians of all age on the floor. For no rhyme or reason. Imagine an event for Christmas Eve, or Bar Mitzvah or Diwali, it would be the same wrongdoing to desecrate.

The attack was quickly condemned by the UN, Canada, Algeria, Bangladesh, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Jordan, Bahrain, Iran, Turkey, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and many other countries, labelling the Al-Aqsa attack as crimes by IDF.

Condemnation of the civilians included the Palestinian Police, and Hamas.

Hamas was created after the first intifada. The first intifada was when more than 1000 civilians killed by IDF.

Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin attempted to reconcile by promoting peace and it was progressing with Yasser Arafat who was head of Fatah

Before peace came to be, Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by right-wing extremist because many did not agree to Rabin’s peace role. After Rabin was assassinated, the next PM came in office, Benjamin Netanyahu.

Not long after, Sharon ignited the 2nd intifada. 3000 civilians killed. A year after, he became the next PM.

 

[M16 citeh]

The problem is most people benchmark a historical timeframe or occurrence that suits their narrative.

Narrative or agenda haha

 

[halfcenturyup]

The whole area has been a shit show forever Isreal neighbours and isreal have done dreadful things to each other, some seem to want to be oblivious to those of one side .
One thing is for sure if hamms hadn't done what they did half of Gaza wouldn't be flat now . What shocks me if that people that apparently care about innocemt palestians try ans deflect this away from Hammas and to me this suggests they hate isreal more than they care for Palestinians

You will be telling me people who don't think like you are all anti-semitic next. Then we are back at page 3 of this thread. Again.

But what about this for a hypothetical. Netanyahu has been waiting for an opportunity to do "this" (whatever this turns out to be) for years and this would have been the response whether 1400 Israelis had been killed by thousands of Hamas fighters, or 40 by 20. Would that make the disproportionate response the fault of Hamas or Netanyahu?

 

[Ducado]

From what I've read Israel/Mosaad has heavily infiltrated Hamas and have plenty of informants on the inside, some very highly placed within the organisation. They aren't entirely reliant eavesdropping technology.

Do you believe that? It's complete nonsense of course they haven't, if they has the attacks on Oct 7th would have been prevented

 

[robbieh]

The whole area has been a shit show forever Isreal neighbours and isreal have done dreadful things to each other, some seem to want to be oblivious to those of one side .
One thing is for sure if hamms hadn't done what they did half of Gaza wouldn't be flat now . What shocks me if that people that apparently care about innocemt palestians try ans deflect this away from Hammas and to me this suggests they hate isreal more than they care for Palestinians

So exactly what are Hamas to do. Every month Israel annexes more land in the West Bank. In the last 10 years Israeli deaths have been at an all time low and yet no carrot is offered, instead just more harassment, humiliation and land seizures aided and abetted by the police and army.

 

[Roachy]

I don't put people on ignore, why would I? And I am not easily affronted. I just think you are trolling now.

Trolling really? It's a reasonable and logical question to ask. If someone stated what isn't proportionate but then in the same passage gave some alternatives, that's great. But that doesn't happen on an awful lot of occasions. So I don't see the issue personally, or shall we just keep the narrative the same to suit certain posters.