Middle East Conflict | Netanyahu orders strikes on Gaza (p1161)

Vic said:
Wanton destruction?

Occupy the Gaza Parliament, take pictures... then blow it up....

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Amazing how all those HAMAS terrorists stayed put and agreed to get blown up. Oh wait, I've got that wrong.


This is clearly just punishing all Palestians and forcing them back to the stone age.

There is no justification for these atrocities.
 
blueinsa said:
I keep hearing the give them a state argument which is fine but the issue is, the state they want means the end of Israel.

Can anyone spot the problem with this ever so simple answer everyone keeps repeating?
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The end of Israel isn’t the end of the Jewish people or their right to live there.

A single land where both Arabs and Jews have equal rights doesn’t seem so bad an outcome, whatever it’s called.
 
goalmole said:
The sensible person would say give the Palestinian people either a state where the can govern themselves and determine their own future or give them full citizenship and rights in a single state where Jews and Arabs have equal rights.
Killing Palestinians in Gaza or inflicting apartheid on Palestinians in the West Bank is never going to kill the spirit of resistance in a people who were dispossessed, discriminated against, disenfranchised and are now being massacred.
If the Palestinians don't get to live in peace, neither will the Israelis.
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I agree, a two state solution is the only solution if there ever will be peace but how do you get to it?

Israel must exist alongside a Palestinian state but how do you get to that with Hamas? Hamas does not believe that Israel should exist, Hamas's supporters in Iran and Hezbollah do not believe that Israel should exist. When I say exist, I don't mean the settlements, I mean their view is that literally Israel as a state should not exist at all.

I'll rephrase this another way. Had Israel not been a major military power then what do you think Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran would try to do to Israel? Israel would potentially be destroyed so that threat is clearly existential and without western support it would be potentially catastrophic.

Iran has been attempting to acquire nuclear weapons over the years precisely so that it can destroy or reduce Israel. It's just bollocks that all Israel needs to do is abolish the settlements and retreat, it's not that simple.
 
blueinsa said:
Neither do Hamas so where do we go next?
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This again? You strangle Hamas over a period of years, by eliminating the leaders with precision attacks in Gaza, Qatar or wherever the fuck they are, by gradually closing down funding and weapons by i) selling the two- state solution to the Arab nations in return for recognition of Israel and normalisation of relations and ii) growing the fuck up with Iran and giving them something they want in return for something the West wants. There will be no peace in the region until the mess with Iran is sorted.

You work on a two-state solution with the West Bank authorities first, and when Hamas is weak enough, you can include Gaza. Trust me, your average Palestinian would take that right now. So would your average Israeli, I imagine. Up to Israel to control their fanatics.

All this could have started on October 8th, but guess what - the right-wing Israeli government chose a different path. You can blame Hamas, but don't blame the Palestinian people for that.
 
inbetween said:
I agree, a two state solution is the only solution if there ever will be peace but how do you get to it?

Israel must exist alongside a Palestinian state but how do you get to that with Hamas? Hamas does not believe that Israel should exist, Hamas's supporters in Iran and Hezbollah do not believe that Israel should exist. When I say exist, I don't mean the settlements, I mean their view is that literally Israel as a state should not exist at all.

I'll rephrase this another way. Had Israel not been a major military power then what do you think Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran would try to do to Israel? Israel would potentially be destroyed so that threat is clearly existential and without western support it would be potentially catastrophic.

Iran has been attempting to acquire nuclear weapons over the years precisely so that it can destroy or reduce Israel. It's just bollocks that all Israel needs to do is abolish the settlements and retreat, it's not that simple.
Click to expand...

But Israel is a major military power and it is supported by the West, so the threat clearly isn't existential, is it? Even if Israel wasn't a major military power there would be Western bases all over it, so the same applies. This existential rhetoric goes too far sometimes.

And as for nuclear, you think the Iranians want to be blown out of existence by launching a nuclear strike on Israel? Really?
 
inbetween said:
I agree, a two state solution is the only solution if there ever will be peace but how do you get to it?

Israel must exist alongside a Palestinian state but how do you get to that with Hamas? Hamas does not believe that Israel should exist, Hamas's supporters in Iran and Hezbollah do not believe that Israel should exist. When I say exist, I don't mean the settlements, I mean their view is that literally Israel as a state should not exist at all.

I'll rephrase this another way. Had Israel not been a major military power then what do you think Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran would try to do to Israel? Israel would potentially be destroyed so that threat is clearly existential and without western support it would be potentially catastrophic.

Iran has been attempting to acquire nuclear weapons over the years precisely so that it can destroy or reduce Israel. It's just bollocks that all Israel needs to do is abolish the settlements and retreat, it's not that simple.
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That threat has been around since Israel was formed.

Can I ask whether you think that what is going on in Gaza right now improves Israel's security?

Such an overbearing and brutal use of it's military might in response to a terrorist attack makes it impossible for more moderate Arab states to cooperate or improve relations with Israel in the foreseeable future.
 
blueinsa said:
I keep hearing the give them a state argument which is fine but the issue is, the state they want means the end of Israel.

Can anyone spot the problem with this ever so simple answer everyone keeps repeating
Click to expand...

You may know that Hamas only exists and thrives on injustice and oppression take that away and they wither, there is no other solution but to give the Palestinians a state of their own, you do realise that eventually the Palestinian population will be larger than the Israeli population and then there will be a true apartheid situation

I guess you are still of the mindset that ever more bloodshed will solve the issue, crush a people into submission?

Whatever you do when you pick a side in this conflict don’t lose your humanity or empathy for everyone involved, too many people think continuing violence is the answer
 
Vic said:
So far it looks like they're saying one bad guy might have been hiding there, at some time.

Perhaps the most cynical thing was the PR photo of all the boxes with newly printed labels saying "medical supplies" in English.
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Those boxes were empty clearly , they had no weight to them being passed around like feathers
 
halfcenturyup said:
But Israel is a major military power and it is supported by the West, so the threat clearly isn't existential, is it? Even if Israel wasn't a major military power there would be Western bases all over it, so the same applies. This existential rhetoric goes too far sometimes.

And as for nuclear, you think the Iranians want to be blown out of existence by launching a nuclear strike on Israel? Really?
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It only isn't an existential threat because the aggressors against Israel don't have any real means to bring war to Israel. However my point is they would bring war to Israel if they could, I mean bloody hell they're trying right now. Israel is currently under attack from Hamas, Hezbollah and there are ballistic missiles being fired from Yemen.

How in the hell do you negotiate with these people and certainly how can you ever get anywhere near peace let alone a two-state solution where everyone lives happily ever after?

The only stop on that violence escalating even further is the fact that the US will then get involved militarily, that's why they have 2 carrier strike groups sat in the eastern mediterranean.

On your last point, there are nutters on here who are big critics of Israel and who also believe that a nuclear deterrent is not required in this world... Israel is protected by a deterrent for a reason as I just said.
 
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Well it seems to me, considering how Israel are stealing the land out there from other people, that Israel deserve all they get. I dont hate them but ffs dont go to another place, steal land, then keep stealing land, eventually the displaced will fight back and soon it will be dirty bombs that they use.

I know they're dealing with an organisation that wont talk peace but ffs dotn go stealing THEIR land. wtf.That's shite.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Well it seems to me, considering how Israel are stealing the land out there from other people, that Israel deserve all they get. I dont hate them but ffs dont go to another place, steal land, then keep stealing land, eventually the displaced will fight back and soon it will be dirty bombs that they use.

I know they're dealing with an organisation that wont talk peace but ffs dotn go stealing THEIR land. wtf.That's shite.
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Stand by to be called antisemetic , i agree by the way
 
inbetween said:
It only isn't an existential threat because the aggressors against Israel don't have any real means to bring war to Israel. However my point is they would bring war to Israel if they could, I mean bloody hell they're trying right now. Israel is currently under attack from Hamas, Hezbollah and there are ballistic missiles being fired from Yemen.

How in the hell do you negotiate with these people and certainly how can you ever get anywhere near peace let alone a two-state solution where everyone lives happily ever after?

The only stop on that violence escalating even further is the fact that the US will then get involved militarily, that's why they have 2 carrier strike groups sat in the eastern mediterranean.

On your last point, there are nutters on here who are big critics of Israel and who also believe that a nuclear deterrent is not required in this world... Israel is protected by a deterrent for a reason as I just said.
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So you agree none of them are an existential threat?

Your second point is referring to Hamas or Netanyahu's government? You can apply it to both, so it will take time firstly to elect someone normal in Israel and secondly to weaken Hamas so they become a minor irritant, and then irrelevant.

Not sure what your next point is. You think Hezbollah will open a second front? Or you are saying they won't? I think you are saying they won't so what's the problem?

And your last point, who has nuclear weapons so who needs a nuclear deterrent?
 
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