PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

[LangleyBlue1970]

I am loving every single second of this. Every time I see a social media post about Everton, our club is talked about more than them. Opposition fans just drooling at the thought we get relegated.

You get the odd fan who clearly knows their onions, but in the main we are doomed and will have our titles stripped!

When our lawyers destroy these charges and we go on and win everything all over again, that is when life gets even more sweet than it is. It is fucking brilliant.

 

[halfcenturyup]

From what little is known publicly about the case, and findings from the CAS verdict, it is entirely possible that City could be found guilty of not co-operating with another investigation. However, Ioannidis (leading sports lawyer and professor at Sheffield Hallam University) and Plumley (sports finance expert and also at Sheffield Hallam University) contend that the Premier League must instead prove its most damning allegations - held to a higher standard than a normal civil case because of their seriousness - to satisfy the judging panel.

"It would not be good enough for the Premier League to argue that Manchester City failed to co-operate with the Premier League’s investigation," they write. "The Premier League would have to go beyond this, by proving that Manchester City, as a matter of fact and evidence, failed to produce accurate financial information (and/or lied about it) in relation to their revenue, within the meaning of the current regulations.

"This is not an easy burden for the Premier League. But it should not be easy, because the allegations produced are of a very serious nature.

Premier League FFP charges for Man City could cause 'mutiny' as UEFA warned

Manchester City are preparing their evidence to refute strong accusations from the Premier League that could change the game

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Wasn't that an old analysis from months ago, or have they issued something else?

 

[I'm Blue]

I spent a chunk of my weekend arguing with someone who claimed to be trained in law that the CAS judgement was actually quite clear that City had broken multiple FFP rules if you just knew how to read between the lines. A little bit of education is a dangerous thing.

Trained in law - read between the lines
Was this the guy?

 

[Dribble]

And in case it hasn't been noticed, the Non Cooperation is the only one not inherently linked to the others. In the sense that if you prove innocence of one, you are almost by default then not guilty of another 2 or 3 of them. Whereas that one is a but in isolation, you could be innocent of all of them, but be deemed to not have cooperated.

Essentially as CAS found.

@Prestwich_Blue really helped unravel this mess with his superb summary in that podcast.

To be honest, when fans see a generic list of PL rules consisting of acronyms like "Rule A 4.6.7" & it's not specific to what City are being accused of, it's a massive switch off, hence why so few understand what's happening outside of clickbait headlines.

Colin brilliantly broke it down which enabled me to finally fully understand our situation, enabling me to research it further.

My head fuckin hurts with all the reading & studying over the last 24 hours, but as they say "To be fore-warned is to be fore-armed".

Cutting to the chase, I believe if our fate is left up to the PL's Appeal Panel, we're seriously fucked!

HOWEVER, once IREF is created to oversee UK football, I honestly believe these charges will be dismissed.

It will essentially be UK Law vs the PL's private members club Rules. UK Law wins every time & football will finally be run in line with all other UK business sectors, & not for the benefit of ManUre, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spuds & poor old Everton, who are one of the five founding members of the PL, who've now been defenestrated by the other four founding member's attempts to finally stop the march of Manchester City.

It's like a fuckin episode of Stop The Pigeon, with us being the bird!

 

[Dribble]

They apply to the PL for a licence. I assume the PL grants the licence for their clubs to play in UEFA competitions.

Yes, that's my understanding too, hence why a breach of UEFA FFP Rules automatically become a breach of Premier League FFP rules, which is why City are being tried twice for the same bullshit charges. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠⊙⁠_⁠ʖ⁠⊙⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

 

[halfcenturyup]

Thanks - perhaps that should have been obvious - but I am still a little confused

I thought that they had been charged - they admitted guilt - the case was then referred to the panel (as ours is currently being) and that the PL wanted a 12 point penalty and the panel have given a 10 point penalty

So I thought that they were at 'the next stage' and therefore there should be no further appeal

In my defence - I have been away golfing so only been reading snippets

You are right. Everton were charged, the "independent" panel found for the PL and a sanction was levied. Everton have appealed, so there will be a new "independent" appeals panel. City can follow the same appeals procedure if the panel finds for the PL in our case.

After the appeals panel, there is a final right of appeal, on certain limited matters, to an actual tribunal, more like CAS.

 

[bluemonkey71]

I can't take any credit for this...expect for reading it, but some legend of a Blue had this email published on the Football 365 website today, quoted in full below.....it's great stuff..

"Man City DID fail to cooperate with the UEFA enquiry and were fined for it, that’ absolutely true. The context though that everybody conveniently ignores, is that City were perfectly cooperating with the CFCB investigation right up until that body leaked sensitive business information of Man City’s to the press, and then they stopped because UEFA couldn’t be trusted not to leak files to their mates that were supposed to be confidential (and indeed were of great interest to rival clubs chasing sponsorships). This was even commented upon by CAS so feel free to use this point next time you’re all pretending that you read the judgement.

In regard to the PL case, City deny the failure to cooperate charge and it’s fair to say that according to the journalists covering them, they were pretty shocked this came up. They even commented on this in their initial statement.

It’s funny how [people] rant on and on about how corrupt UEFA, the Big Four, the ECA, the PL and the rest are but when it comes to Man City apparently they’re all paragons of virtue and it’s not a stitch-up despite the 115 charges being conveniently released the day before the Independent Football Regulator vote, despite the fact that the press release was so rushed that they had to go back and edit it because they quoted the wrong regulations (which for a legal statement tells you a lot), despite the fact that UEFA attempted to break its own rules to charge City and were caught by CAS, despite the fact that City only failed FFP the first time around because UEFA DID change their rules 2 years into a 3 year Monitoring Period to disallow some exemptions, despite the fact that of the 5 actual allegations by the PL 2 of them are instantly dismissable and the other 3 have already being investigated and cleared by numerous courts.

People coping on the Etisalat deal don’t understand firstly how small that deal is and secondly how it will be clear like everything else was.

Do you know why City have 115 charges against them? Because they’re fishing. The PL spent 6 years investigating City’s accounts (with cooperation of City by the way) and came up with a bunch of easily dismissable stuff (“paying people off the books”, etc), a bunch of stuff other people have already investigated and which they have no new evidence of (sponsorship deals) and a vague charge which doesn’t really mean anything concrete and is subjectively judged (failing to cooperate).

If the PL ACTUALLY believed that they had the evidence to go against City then they’d have a small and watertight case, instead they’ve gone as wide as possible. There were 28,000 documents submitted in the Everton case as evidence relating to a single charge. How many do you believe the PL will get for 115 charges? How much manpower do you think it would take to go through and cross reference it all?

This is all irrelevant any way to be honest, because not a single one of you actually cares about this case in the terms of its legal merits. You’ve already judged City guilty so if YET AGAIN there are no financial irregularities found then it doesn’t matter to you, because despite having no legal, accounting, marketing or football business experience then you all know better than every court in the land. Stop pretending you’re on some moral crusade for truth and start acknowledging that you just want City to fail for other reasons and you’re hoping through ignorance that the financial irregularities that still remain completely unproven is the thing that will topple them because your clubs have no ability to compete on the pitch due to terrible mismanagement. Oh and the guys who were “there’s no smoke without fire”/”just because it’s not proven doesn’t mean it’s not true” the other day, please please please disqualify yourself from jury service because you’re a danger to society.

I’m sure this will result in some face saving deal for the PL who will hand down some massive and hilarious sentence docking 5 billion points and stripping every title ever won ever which they know will be completely unenforceable and will be overturned about sixteen seconds into the appeals process. But they get their big PR win for a few months, City get dragged through the press as per usual and the fact that it all gets dismissed on appeal won’t matter a jot to people because everybody wins in that scenario apart from those of us who would prefer Governing bodies not to purposely attempt to stitch up people because they happen to be taking revenue away from clubs they’d prefer it to go to.
And no, you still don’t understand how the time barring thing worked."

GOOD MAN, WELL SAID!

Paul in Manchester take a bow

 

[dave_blue12]

Anyone seen Rodney Marsh’s tweet?

“I believe City have, allegedly, prepared a monster counter defamation law suit in fact and in law”

KFA or ITK?

No idea if this is true but I hope it is.

I would be looking to nail everyone that has besmirched City’s good name including the clowns posting on social media from their Mum’s bedroom.

This could be the biggest defamation case in history!

 

[halfcenturyup]

Yes, that's my understanding too, hence why a breach of UEFA FFP Rules automatically become a breach of Premier League FFP rules, which is why City are being tried twice for the same bullshit charges. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠⊙⁠_⁠ʖ⁠⊙⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

And United breaching UEFA FFP? The PL seem to think any breach in the PL should be a 6 point deduction. Not so fussed about UEFA breaches then?

 

[Chi-town blues]

Anyone seen Rodney Marsh’s tweet?

“I believe City have, allegedly, prepared a monster counter defamation law suit in fact and in law”

KFA or ITK?

It’s about time . Come on city.

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

The one alleged breach I have always wondered about is the Etisalat payments. It was dismissed from the CAS findings by time barred but the evidence saying we did something wrongs seems pretty solid. Anyone know something about this that I may have missed?

 

[jim_tolmies_perm]

I've learned so much the last 24 hours, that I've had to shift my views accordingly.

I've been stating that the PL have charged us without viewing our "irrefutable evidence", but I now believe I was mistaken.

My evolved view is that since all this started in 2018, the PL have leveled their accusations at City, & City have provided our defence evidence.

It also seems both parties differed on two substantive points.

1. The PL wanted full unrestricted access to our accounts & internal records, but City said no.

2. City wanted the process to be private & confidential, but the Law Courts disagreed & said the process was of public interest.

In respect to point one, City told the PL to be specific about their allegations & we'd provide the relevant defence evidence, as opposed to the PL going on a fishing trip & poring through all our confidential internal business records to see what they could find.

In respect to point two, fearing reputational damage, City wanted to keep the investigation process private & confidential & without leaks, as we experienced with UEFA. The courts disagreed.

I now believe the PL have gone through our evidence, but were caught flat footed by the Government's Independent Regulator for English Football (IREF) announcement in February 2023.

Panicked, the PL rushed out their judgement filled with administrative errors by citing the wrong PL rule book indeces, which they embarrassingly had to correct.

City denied any wrong doing & appealed the PL's ruling, so another three members from the PL's internal 6-person independent adjudication panel were selected to review the charges, evidence & defence again.

This is where I believe myself, & most of us have been mistaken. It took the PL FIVE YEARS to come to their rushed decision in February, so I feel expert onlookers have estimated the appeals process will take at least two years to complete, but could easily stretch to four years!

The reason no information about the appeal is being circulated by the PL or City is because the whole process is private & confidential, & when it's complete, the PL appeals panel will publish its verdict on the PL's website.

The time being taken now isn't because the PL have only just asked City for our evidence, which would take years to go through. I now firmly believe they've had our evidence all along, but because of the volume of PL charge evidence & City's defence evidence that the PL's appeal panel will have to wade through, it could take nearly as long again to review the tribunal bundles.

As always, if I'm wrong I'm more than happy to hold my hands up, & in this latest FFP case against City, I believe I've been calling this wrong.

This post now hopefully adjusts my considered view accordingly.

In Conclusion:

I doubt there's any fresh charges coming, or any new defence evidence being offered. Everything surrounding this hearing has already been submitted & adjudicated on.

The PL found us guilty on 115 charges & City have appealed their verdict. Another three members from the PL's 6-person appeals panel have been selected to review the case again, & this is estimated to take between two - four years.

The PL's appeal panel decision will be final & City can't appeal their verdict to the Law Courts, UNLESS it's to do with issues relating to the actual appeals process.

We know who the PL clubs are who're desperate to get City, which honestly doesn't bode well.

HOWEVER, before anyone starts stringing up a noose, don't forget IREF! This is the spanner in the works none of the old Sky 4, the Hateful Eight, or the PL were expecting.

I'm not holding out much hope the appeals panel will find any different to the PL's original 115 charges, BUT I believe IREF & ultimately the UK Law Courts will, just as CAS did.

It's game on folks & we're in a proper scrap with an organisation run by a cartel of legacy clubs who want us gone.

They tried to strangle us at birth, so their dominance could never be challenged by new money, so just like any progressive business would, City found LEGAL ways around UEFA & the PL's self serving FFP rules.

I believe this fight will come down to UK Sovereign Law vs the PL's Rules. This is why I believe IREF is our only & best way forward. )(

Explain this IREF ?

"HOWEVER, before anyone starts stringing up a noose, don't forget IREF! This is the spanner in the works none of the old Sky 4, the Hateful Eight, or the PL were expecting."

 

[Bloominmarvellous]

Yes I should have said the Independent panel the PL has referred the case to.

But i

I've learned so much the last 24 hours, that I've had to shift my views accordingly.

I've been stating that the PL have charged us without viewing our "irrefutable evidence", but I now believe I was mistaken.

My evolved view is that since all this started in 2018, the PL have leveled their accusations at City, & City have provided our defence evidence.

It also seems both parties differed on two substantive points.

1. The PL wanted full unrestricted access to our accounts & internal records, but City said no.

2. City wanted the process to be private & confidential, but the Law Courts disagreed & said the process was of public interest.

In respect to point one, City told the PL to be specific about their allegations & we'd provide the relevant defence evidence, as opposed to the PL going on a fishing trip & poring through all our confidential internal business records to see what they could find.

In respect to point two, fearing reputational damage, City wanted to keep the investigation process private & confidential & without leaks, as we experienced with UEFA. The courts disagreed.

I now believe the PL have gone through our evidence, but were caught flat footed by the Government's Independent Regulator for English Football (IREF) announcement in February 2023.

Panicked, the PL rushed out their judgement filled with administrative errors by citing the wrong PL rule book indeces, which they embarrassingly had to correct.

City denied any wrong doing & appealed the PL's ruling, so another three members from the PL's internal 6-person independent adjudication panel were selected to review the charges, evidence & defence again.

This is where I believe myself, & most of us have been mistaken. It took the PL FIVE YEARS to come to their rushed decision in February, so I feel expert onlookers have estimated the appeals process will take at least two years to complete, but could easily stretch to four years!

The reason no information about the appeal is being circulated by the PL or City is because the whole process is private & confidential, & when it's complete, the PL appeals panel will publish its verdict on the PL's website.

The time being taken now isn't because the PL have only just asked City for our evidence, which would take years to go through. I now firmly believe they've had our evidence all along, but because of the volume of PL charge evidence & City's defence evidence that the PL's appeal panel will have to wade through, it could take nearly as long again to review the tribunal bundles.

As always, if I'm wrong I'm more than happy to hold my hands up, & in this latest FFP case against City, I believe I've been calling this wrong.

This post now hopefully adjusts my considered view accordingly.

In Conclusion:

I doubt there's any fresh charges coming, or any new defence evidence being offered. Everything surrounding this hearing has already been submitted & adjudicated on.

The PL found us guilty on 115 charges & City have appealed their verdict. Another three members from the PL's 6-person appeals panel have been selected to review the case again, & this is estimated to take between two - four years.

The PL's appeal panel decision will be final & City can't appeal their verdict to the Law Courts, UNLESS it's to do with issues relating to the actual appeals process.

We know who the PL clubs are who're desperate to get City, which honestly doesn't bode well.

HOWEVER, before anyone starts stringing up a noose, don't forget IREF! This is the spanner in the works none of the old Sky 4, the Hateful Eight, or the PL were expecting.

I'm not holding out much hope the appeals panel will find any different to the PL's original 115 charges, BUT I believe IREF & ultimately the UK Law Courts will, just as CAS did.

It's game on folks & we're in a proper scrap with an organisation run by a cartel of legacy clubs who want us gone.

They tried to strangle us at birth, so their dominance could never be challenged by new money, so just like any progressive business would, City found LEGAL ways around UEFA & the PL's self serving FFP rules.

I believe this fight will come down to UK Sovereign Law vs the PL's Rules. This is why I believe IREF is our only & best way forward. )(

City have been charged but this has not been heard yet so any talk of appeals panel is a bit premature. The way I see it is city went to court to get a ruling on what/if they had to disclose and then did so. The PL one would assume looked at this and felt there is a case to answer

You are right. Everton were charged, the "independent" panel found for the PL and a sanction was levied. Everton have appealed, so there will be a new "independent" appeals panel. City can follow the same appeals procedure if the panel finds for the PL in our case.

After the appeals panel, there is a final right of appeal, on certain limited matters, to an actual tribunal, more like CAS.

Everton have appealed the sanction and not the actual decision that they are guilty (as they claimed guilty from the start)

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Anyone seen Rodney Marsh’s tweet?

“I believe City have, allegedly, prepared a monster counter defamation law suit in fact and in law”

KFA or ITK?

Allegedly and believe doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence…

 

[halfcenturyup]

Anyone seen Rodney Marsh’s tweet?

“I believe City have, allegedly, prepared a monster counter defamation law suit in fact and in law”

KFA or ITK?

I want to believe it, so he is definitely ITK for me :)

 

[Cobwebcat]

Thanks - perhaps that should have been obvious - but I am still a little confused

I thought that they had been charged - they admitted guilt - the case was then referred to the panel (as ours is currently being) and that the PL wanted a 12 point penalty and the panel have given a 10 point penalty

So I thought that they were at 'the next stage' and therefore there should be no further appeal

In my defence - I have been away golfing so only been reading snippets

I can’t even be sure I’m right. It’s my best guess.

The whole thing is madness for no reason other than to help United.

 

[lancs blue]

And United breaching UEFA FFP? The PL seem to think any breach in the PL should be a 6 point deduction. Not so fussed about UEFA breaches then?

Regarding the rags breaching UEFA FFP but not the PL FFP, I believe that all hinges around UEFA FFP not allowing as large a write-off for Covid lockdown losses as the PL's version. So it was quite possible for a club to fail UEFA FFP for that period but pass the PL FFP.

 

[Cobwebcat]

Not true.

They've appealed the IC's decision to deduct points, we've not even had the IC hearing yet.

YesI think that’s correct

 

[Coatigan]

Swedish Ramble is a pretty knowledgeable guy but he's only going off what he can see, but completely misinterprets

Is that not Swiss, and this guy is a bit of a knock-off?

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I've learned so much the last 24 hours, that I've had to shift my views accordingly.

I've been stating that the PL have charged us without viewing our "irrefutable evidence", but I now believe I was mistaken.

My evolved view is that since all this started in 2018, the PL have leveled their accusations at City, & City have provided our defence evidence.

It also seems both parties differed on two substantive points.

1. The PL wanted full unrestricted access to our accounts & internal records, but City said no.

2. City wanted the process to be private & confidential, but the Law Courts disagreed & said the process was of public interest.

In respect to point one, City told the PL to be specific about their allegations & we'd provide the relevant defence evidence, as opposed to the PL going on a fishing trip & poring through all our confidential internal business records to see what they could find.

In respect to point two, fearing reputational damage, City wanted to keep the investigation process private & confidential & without leaks, as we experienced with UEFA. The courts disagreed.

I now believe the PL have gone through our evidence, but were caught flat footed by the Government's Independent Regulator for English Football (IREF) announcement in February 2023.

Panicked, the PL rushed out their judgement filled with administrative errors by citing the wrong PL rule book indeces, which they embarrassingly had to correct.

City denied any wrong doing & appealed the PL's ruling, so another three members from the PL's internal 6-person independent adjudication panel were selected to review the charges, evidence & defence again.

This is where I believe myself, & most of us have been mistaken. It took the PL FIVE YEARS to come to their rushed decision in February, so I feel expert onlookers have estimated the appeals process will take at least two years to complete, but could easily stretch to four years!

The reason no information about the appeal is being circulated by the PL or City is because the whole process is private & confidential, & when it's complete, the PL appeals panel will publish its verdict on the PL's website.

The time being taken now isn't because the PL have only just asked City for our evidence, which would take years to go through. I now firmly believe they've had our evidence all along, but because of the volume of PL charge evidence & City's defence evidence that the PL's appeal panel will have to wade through, it could take nearly as long again to review the tribunal bundles.

As always, if I'm wrong I'm more than happy to hold my hands up, & in this latest FFP case against City, I believe I've been calling this wrong.

This post now hopefully adjusts my considered view accordingly.

In Conclusion:

I doubt there's any fresh charges coming, or any new defence evidence being offered. Everything surrounding this hearing has already been submitted & adjudicated on.

The PL found us guilty on 115 charges & City have appealed their verdict. Another three members from the PL's 6-person appeals panel have been selected to review the case again, & this is estimated to take between two - four years.

The PL's appeal panel decision will be final & City can't appeal their verdict to the Law Courts, UNLESS it's to do with issues relating to the actual appeals process.

We know who the PL clubs are who're desperate to get City, which honestly doesn't bode well.

HOWEVER, before anyone starts stringing up a noose, don't forget IREF! This is the spanner in the works none of the old Sky 4, the Hateful Eight, or the PL were expecting.

I'm not holding out much hope the appeals panel will find any different to the PL's original 115 charges, BUT I believe IREF & ultimately the UK Law Courts will, just as CAS did.

It's game on folks & we're in a proper scrap with an organisation run by a cartel of legacy clubs who want us gone.

They tried to strangle us at birth, so their dominance could never be challenged by new money, so just like any progressive business would, City found LEGAL ways around UEFA & the PL's self serving FFP rules.

I believe this fight will come down to UK Sovereign Law vs the PL's Rules. This is why I believe IREF is our only & best way forward. )(

If that’s true though, surely we’d have been ‘sentenced‘ as well, just like Everton?