PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Dribble said:
So seeing as much of this info is already in the public domain, what are HMRC, the SFO & the police waiting for? Like the recent situation with Angela Rayner, why haven't we been reported by someone and/or had our collar felt yet because the authorities have become aware of City's potential criminality?

Are you seriously suggesting the UK Statutory Authorities are waiting for the Premier League's Independent Commission to do their job for them, before they strike & move in to raid the Etihad & slap the bracelets on our Executives?



Civil Law is concerned with the rights & property of individual people or organisations, & settles disputes between them, so this could extend to infinity over the most petty of disputes including who owns a pet, or if a neighbour's overhanging tree is encroaching on your property. Let's be honest about the very serious to ultra petty scope of UK Civil disputes here.

As far as I'm aware, only the CPS, police & certain statutory bodies can "charge" people in the UK, & this relates to criminal matters & covers several civil matters too.

When did the PL "charge" City? Have they ever used the "legal" term in respect to us? If not, why? All I've heard from the PL is "allegations" & "breaches".



They are "breaches" it's a "hearing" & there's nothing "legal" about it, unless/until a statutory body moves in to investigate with a view to issuing criminal or civil proceedings.

People can use whatever terms they like in reference to these breaches. My point is it's way beyond semantics as to why the PL have (in my opinion) carefully chosen not to. You believe there's nothing in this, but I believe this is absolutely crucial to properly understanding the alleged breaches & the resultant IC hearing.

I too got myself so deep in the forest that I couldn't see the wood for the trees. Yes, I fully support Manchester City, not just as a City fan, but because after getting out of the forest & taking a global overview, I saw these allegations very differently.

The very careful language used by the PL, the fact this has been played out so publicly but yet no statutory body has been complained to, or been on contact with City (to our knowledge) is critical to understanding my viewpoint.

To my knowledge the PL have never used the words "fraud" "charges" "case" "legal" or "guilty" against us & I suspect there's a VERY good reason why.

The PL aren't a statutory body, so are toothless in actual UK Law. They have no legal duty to find us "guilty" or "not guilty", & will just about be able to find us "liable" or "not liable", & even then only in the literal sense of the words, & not the legal sense.

Now I could be wrong here, so I'd appreciate it if you could provide counter empirical evidence to the contrary if you think I am. I don't mind my assertations being challenged & found to be in error, because at the very least it will help settle the minds of millions of worried City fans one way or the other.

Essentially, you feel City are on the verge of very serious legal jeopardy which will put our very PL existence in peril if we're found "guilty" of the "charges".

I feel these are jumped up allegations by a private members club who have about as much clout as the Wheel Tappers & Shunters Social Club's executive committee.

The PL's evidence is based on hacked & spliced emails from which they've formed suppositions & made subsequent allegations.

I think where we can both agree is that the level of cogency required to find us liable is seriously high, & for City's first batch of evidence, we've presented our audited, verified company accounts for starters.

Over to you, the Premier League & their Independent Commission.
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There's a lot of feeling in there.
 
KS55 said:
11 managers in 12 years, poor overpriced recruitment, poor player sales, spending money they haven’t got, debts mounting. Was Swales their president?
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Hang on. I thought fan ownership was a panacea, ensuring all clubs were answerable to their members and run responsibly?
 
mancboy said:
The thing about these articles that make me laugh is that they are written by a sports reporter with zero understanding of complex financial accounting methods and yet they still feel qualified to comment on them just like they do on football which they also have no understanding of, the level of ego it must take to write about things that you have no understanding of is incredible and the fact that the press let them do it is even more shameful, next it will be some dickhead of youtube presenting question time because vibes innit
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I think part of the problem these days is people don't understand or want expert views or that just by being on line the assumption is you have expertise because you wouldn't dare state stuff, if it wasn't true - maybe it's a mixture of the two.
There are still a lot of people who believe things in newspapers are actually all true with no bias, yet here we have a guy who apparently hasn't even heard of Companies House - or god forbid, is being 'disingenuous'!
 
Dribble said:
My posts are in response to your continued hyperbole which I've characterised because you've completely overlooked the following:

No police. No HMRC. No SFO. No accusation of fraud. Nothing. Why?

I'm aware of the disclosure process, yet some say we're facing non-cooperation charges which suggests no disclosure (whether timely or not). Go figure.

The PL are coming at us with essentially the same breaches UEFA did. CAS threw them out on appeal because of a lack of evidence. So where've the PL suddenly got this new damining evidence from, over & above what UEFA had?

As for "Charges", I looked & all I could find was others referring to our breaches as charges not the PL. A link to where you found it would settle that one.

I'll leave you to explain to everyone what's taking HMRC so long to feel our collar, seeing as the Der Spiegel allegations were brought to their attention SIX years ago.

View attachment 116753

'We're carrying out visits to every Premier League club and most Football League clubs, along with their players. We're currently making enquiries into 171 footballers, 44 football clubs and 31 agents for a range of issues, including image rights abuse.

Asked by if it would investigate Mancini's work for Al Jazira to establish it was legitimate, HMRC said it does not comment on 'identifiable taxpayers'.

'We are clear that everyone must pay their fair share of tax. The vast majority of taxpayers pay the right amount of tax on time, including those in the football industry.

However, HMRC is relentless in pursuing those who do not play by the rules. HMRC rigorously enforces the rules and has brought in £332million in extra tax by tackling non-compliance in the football industry.'

Many people are making capital, gaining clicks, viewers or becoming famous out of Manchester City fans' misery in respects to these breaches, & they need to stop it as it's terrifying the crap out of many of our faithful fans.

Again... No police. No HMRC. No SFO. No accusation of fraud. Nothing.

Let's start connecting the dots beginning with you explaining why, seeing as it's evident the details of Der Spiegel's claims have been brought to the attention of the authorities since at least November 2018?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...relentless-pursuing-club-tried-dodge-tax.html
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I like to hear what stefan says because it's fact based and informative.
You are quoting the Daily Mail. And why does he have to explain to everyone? Wtf is this bollocks.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
I like to hear what stefan says because it's fact based and informative.
You are quoting the Daily Mail. And why does he have to explain to everyone? Wtf is this bollocks.
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It's an important point being that the authorities were made aware of the Der Spiegel claims as far back as November 2018.

My unanswered question to him is why haven't the authorities descended on the Etihad to impound our documents & devices?

This is an alleged multi-million pound fraud, carried out over 15 years. Angela Rayner was interviewed by the police over claims she may have underpaid £1500 in capital gains tax 10 years ago.

Something evidently doesn't add up, & in spite of his hyperbole, he can't explain why.
 
The Stockport Iniesta said:
That's a strange take from a City fan? It will also bring Arsenal and Liverpool closer to us if we need to make cut backs, is that good news?
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Providing it’s a level playing field, then even if it hinders City, then fair fucks. It seems a ridiculous way to try and grow the league.
But if it’s the same rule for all, then there’s not much to moan at.
 
lol it really is pathetic isnt it, HMRC would never ever name or single out the club like those headlines say, but hey 4 games to go and the race is neck and neck, the next pile of shit on the eve of the FA Cup Final i think
 
projectriver said:
Not really. Each case is different. In any event, just because those raids occurred doesn't mean much in this context.
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I know you're probably bored to the back teeth of the same repetitive questions so I shall apologise in advance.
To me, a normal fan looking from the outside in, we're being accused of false figures in sponsorship deals and monies in general about the club, correct?

To me that is fraud is it not? What I'm failing to join together is that if the Premier League are accusing us of it and they seem cocksure we are fiddling about figures, why aren't the relevant authorities acting on it?

And I've just realised your username is projectriver. I've always read it as projectdriver.

My bad. :)
 
Dribble said:
It's an important point being that the authorities were made aware of the Der Spiegel claims as far back as November 2018.

My unanswered question to him is why haven't the authorities descended on the Etihad to impound our documents & devices?

This is an alleged multi-million pound fraud, carried out over 15 years. Angela Rayner was interviewed by the police over claims she may have underpaid £1500 in capital gains tax 10 years ago.

Something evidently doesn't add up, & in spite of his hyperbole, he can't explain why.
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If the accusation is where the sponsor got their money and the sponsor being based in UAE, would HMRC get involved?
If the accusation is the sponsor paid too much, would we actually be due a rebate?
 
abu13 said:
Im not going to judge the rules until I understand them more but the point above about bonuses is quite interesting, lets assume for a minute that we are on for the treble next season and it comes down to the CL final, if we win it then the whole playing squad gets a bonus that suddenly puts us outside of the permitted spend. Given the players are all on contracts written before these rules came into affect, where the hell does this go.
Do we get to a situation where players get told to throw a CL final just to ensure the club comply to a set of rules like this?
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Surely we just use the bonus money to buy a hotel and split it between them. That's allowed isn't it ?
 
manimanc said:
I know you're probably bored to the back teeth of the same repetitive questions so I shall apologise in advance.
To me, a normal fan looking from the outside in, we're being accused of false figures in sponsorship deals and monies in general about the club, correct?

To me that is fraud is it not? What I'm failing to join together is that if the Premier League are accusing us of it and they seem cocksure we are fiddling about figures, why aren't the relevant authorities acting on it?

And I've just realised your username is projectriver. I've always read it as projectdriver.

My bad. :)
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As per @Chris in London's excellent FAQs thread:

If fraud is alleged, why haven’t City been charged by the criminal authorities?

It would have been unusual for (say) the Serious Fraud Office to commence an investigation in a case like this where what is alleged is a breach of the PL’s internal rules. However they tend not to announce it from the rooftops when they are commencing an investigation, especially if that would result in (for instance) evidence being destroyed.

If the charges are proved (and there is no appeal), it is quite probable that a criminal allegation would be launched. Given how high-profile this case is, it would be difficult for the SFO to resist the pressure to launch their own investigation.

However, the standard of proof in a criminal case is even higher – it is beyond reasonable doubt – and the age of some of the charges means that it would be very difficult to persuade a jury that the accounts signed off 12 or 13 years ago were knowingly/fraudulently mis-stated. Moreover, if City lost it is almost inevitable that there would be an appeal, which would mean that the events in question were even more historic.

Never say never, but criminal charges seems very very unlikely even if the PL charges are successful.
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Gorton_Tubster said:
There's a lot of feeling in there.
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Because my club is apparently under mortal threat, & supposed City fans are adding to the bullshit we're facing.

I'm a realist who likes to be told how things are. The crucial point always being avoided is:

No police. No HMRC. No SFO. No accusation of fraud. Nothing. Why?

Before we get dragged into the accounting & legal weeds, why not think laterally & seek answers to the above fundamentals first...
 
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manimanc said:
I know you're probably bored to the back teeth of the same repetitive questions so I shall apologise in advance.
To me, a normal fan looking from the outside in, we're being accused of false figures in sponsorship deals and monies in general about the club, correct?

To me that is fraud is it not? What I'm failing to join together is that if the Premier League are accusing us of it and they seem cocksure we are fiddling about figures, why aren't the relevant authorities acting on it?

And I've just realised your username is projectriver. I've always read it as projectdriver.

My bad. :)
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These things are rarely straightforward. If the matters were proven it may well be that other authorities would involve themselves because in City's words at CAS: "The allegations made by the CFCB in these proceedings are serious and based on fraud and conspiracy involving MCFC, ADUG and the sponsors Etisalat and Etihad." Therefore, if proven, City would clearly have an issue.

It really isn't a debate that this is what the allegations amount to given that City said this themselves. For CAS' part they said:

"UEFA’s theory would also mean that not only MCFC lied to The FA and UEFA, but also that accountancy firms such as BDO, Deloitte, Ernst & Young and AlixPartners that all examined accounts of one or more entities involved were all misled."

So again, if proven, very serious. Not hyperbolic and not my words.

It doesn't really confirm anything that no other authorities (that we know of) have taken action. They can wait and see.
 
hammocity said:
It must be him, he had Boris type hair but very blonde and a swagger that he could carry off without embarrassment. I have to say he was very good at his job and all the pupils engaged with him, do you know if he’s still with us?
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I haven't a clue tbh but he'd be well in his 80's I'd imagine. We only went because one of our friends was the daughter of another Tory councillor and because we could get pissed up on a Friday aged 16 in slightly more salubrious surroundings than Withington Rec.
 
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