Middle East Conflict

A matter of contention was generated on the thread "Uk far right trouble" - the thread about riots in the UK on a unrelated topic
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UK trouble

Are you really saying that anyone convicted of any crime should automatically lose all of their human rights?! Looks like it, doesn't it? People are losing their minds to such a degree that they'll be clamouring to vote in Putin fanboy Farage. And then we're all doomed.
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West Didsblue contentious argument

i know people are justifiably angry at Netanyahu’s government but use of the word Zionist is inflammatory because to most Jews it simply means support for Israel’s right to exist and is not related to support for Israeli government actions in Gaza and the West Bank.
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My main counterargument to that principle:

Also take note that in practice Zionism can stand for a expanionist policy of the Jewish state. It can go further than to just have "some land to call its own", to an extend of claiming "even more" land to its own under the same ideal. This is because there is no fixed definition of the size of the Jewish homeland (and just a 1 square kilometer microstate wouldnt do right?) and there is an active policy of Jewish settlement outside the recognized borders of Israel.
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Hence my argument is that zionism is not restricted solely to the belief that the Jewish people should have "a homeland", its also an ideoligy that is used for the expansionism of the Jewish state.

Feel free to discuss
 
Dictionary defines it as:

A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.
 
PragueBlue said:
Dictionary defines it as:

A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.
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Yeah I understand both views but tend to side with West Dids here. I’m a Zionist in that I believe in Israel’s right to exist but I hate their government and believe Palestine should have its own state.
 
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PragueBlue said:
Dictionary defines it as:

A movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.
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I think the problem, certaintly for what regards Netanyahu's regime, is that it results in state support of Jewish colonization of Palestinian lands outside its borders. As such it seems a logical extension to the Zionist ideal of making Palestine a Jewish homeland.

As it was originally defined By Herzels movement, was there ever a limit to it's expansion? Purely in theory a microstate is a homeland and might do for that stated goal, but what we have in practice is a form of colonization that is practically wholly replacing he population makeup of a region trough conflict. And there is a very conscious policy to this that is an extension of the interest of the established Jewish state, one that aims to expand the jewish state and make regions Jewish. Should i really accept that for the matter even of contemporary debates "thats not Zionism"? That is not an extension of the interrests behind he establishment of a Jewish state?
 
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Humans are inherently lazy and I think a lot on social media use the term Zionism meaning anti the Israeli government, rather than typing out anti-Israeli government every time in discussions.

There are some that use the term nefariously, but it’d be hard to put a percentage to that.

There probably needs to be another term coined to mean anti-Israeli government to remove the need for this debate to be had perpetually.
 
Please remove my name from the thread title.

The clear definition of Zionism was not relevant to the point I made on the other thread and a discussion about its definition is not something I wish to participate in because it’s been done before and it will end up going round in circles.
 
west didsblue said:
Please remove my name from the thread title.

The clear definition of Zionism was not relevant to the point I made on the other thread and a discussion about its definition is not something I wish to participate in because it’s been done before and it will end up going round in circles.
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Yeah, bit of a shitty thread title that, mate.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
Humans are inherently lazy and I think a lot on social media use the term Zionism meaning anti the Israeli government, rather than typing out anti-Israeli government every time in discussions.
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I use the term in the "follow up" context of "any extra establishment of the Jewish state"

Israel exist, some might regret that very fact however pragmatism dictates that this is a fait accompli regardless any potential opposition to the very principle of establishing a homeland in a region that is occupied and which results in violence and dislocation. Which is to say, as an ideoligy Zionism doesnt nessecarily even get a pass for what it wanted given the consequences of it or even the people and powers that played a factor into it, but whats done is done and the only humanly justifyable thing to do is to accept that.

Practically, the ideal NOW i guess would be that the Jewish people are happy with the Homeland they have today, as to what is atleast in their official borders, while the Palestinians have their own state AND CRUCIALLY both can live in peace with eachother. Now that last one is arguably not so likely and many feel "it takes two to tango here".

Purely pragmatically, the further colonization of Palestine is just that step to far atleast from the Israeli or Zionist side. I have a very strong impression that the Jewish settlers in Palestine self-justify their presence from an extension of Zionist principles, aka imho many of them feel Palestina is "their Jewish homeland to take back", even though its otherwise also a cheap way to get a house and some land trough benevolence of the jewish state.
 
Alan Harper's Tash said:
Humans are inherently lazy and I think a lot on social media use the term Zionism meaning anti the Israeli government, rather than typing out anti-Israeli government every time in discussions.

There are some that use the term nefariously, but it’d be hard to put a percentage to that.

There probably needs to be another term coined to mean anti-Israeli government to remove the need for this debate to be had perpetually.
Click to expand...
Is there any other country in the world where one has to be so specific about being against a particular government rather than its people.

History and its baggage.

Its not really hard to just say the Istaeli government are shit. I feel some like the controversy.

On bluemoon what am I thinking? I retract that last sentence:-)
 
hilts said:
Is there any other country in the world where one has to be so specific about being against a particular government rather than its people.

History and its baggage.

Its not really hard to just say the Istaeli government are shit. I feel some like the controversy.

On bluemoon what am I thinking? I retract that last sentence:-)
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And that’s the issue. The need to be specific and peoples’ laziness.

Maybe it’s also to muddy the waters and have a slanging match about terminology, rather than actually debate the real issues that need resolving.
 
FlemishDuck said:
A matter of contention was generated on the thread "Uk far right trouble" - the thread about riots in the UK on a unrelated topic
forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk

UK trouble

Are you really saying that anyone convicted of any crime should automatically lose all of their human rights?! Looks like it, doesn't it? People are losing their minds to such a degree that they'll be clamouring to vote in Putin fanboy Farage. And then we're all doomed.
forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk

West Didsblue contentious argument



My main counterargument to that principle:



Hence my argument is that zionism is not restricted solely to the belief that the Jewish people should have "a homeland", its also an ideoligy that is used for the expansionism of the Jewish state.

Feel free to discuss
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Zionism is a wide movement that covers the whole spectrum of politics and religion. At it's core is the definition posted above. The origin of Zionism was the late 19th century, before the establishment of the state of Israel, when a very significant number of Jews lived in the Russian 'Pale of Settlement', which covered what's now Western Russia, through Ukraine, Poland, Belarus, Moldova, Lithuania, etc. They weren't allowed to live outside this area and were increasingly subject to antisemitism including violent pogroms. That's why there was mass migration in the late91th and early 20th centuries, which was greeted in the UK in an even more vehement fashion that the 'Stop The Boats' rhetoric, and led to the Aliens Act of 1905.

The idea of a Jewish homeland, where they'd be free from persecution, was mooted and the Zionist movement started from that. Initially it was a left-ish, more secular movement, and opposed by the more traditional, religious grouping. People started making their way to what was then Ottoman-ruled territory. So that's the original definition - those who wanted a Jewish homeland where they could be secure and live peacefully. Nothing more than that.

Over time the Zionist movement has morphed into that wider and more fractured group, encompassing very secular and left-wing groups (who are more sympathetic to the Palestinian desire for statehood) and the right-wing, religious, settler grouping, who are expansionist and support annexation what they see as biblical Israel, and are (to put it mildly) very unsympathetic and quite aggressive and violent towards the Palestinian residents on the West Bank. They are akin to the sort of 'patriots' we saw on the streets of Southport, Middlesbrough and other places.

That's why using 'Zionist' as a blanket term is completely meaningless. Effectively, they mean 'Jews' but use 'Zionist' to cover their racism.

Similarly, people who use the term 'anti-Zionist' could range from those horrified at the current actions in Gaza (which is perfectly understandable) but who accept an Israeli state within the 1948 borders (or thereabouts) to those who don't accept Israel's right to exist and who wish to see it destroyed. They are antisemites, not anti-Zionists.
 
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