Middle East Conflict

bluethrunthru said:
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LOL. People often highlight these people, when they clearly have no idea who this religious sect is, and why they behave as they do. They believe they're extremely moral Jews who are very pro-Palestinian and vehemently anti-Zionist. You might think differently when I tell you their real motivation.

Their sect is called Neturei Karta, which means Guardians of the city. They're extreme even among religious Jews, but like all ultra-religious Jews, they literally believe the old testament, that the world is less than 6,000 years old and they refuse to accept any scientific evidence to the contrary. And part of that belief is that Israel was given by God to the Jewish people, in perpetuity. So they are Zionists, in the widest sense of the word.

However, they take that further and believe that God took it away from the Jews (in 79AD when the second temple was destroyed) and that only God, not man, can give it back. So, like many ultra-religious Jews, they're not Zionists in the political sense and don't accept the existence of the modern state of Israel as a political entity (although many of them live there and accept state handouts and use the many available facilities for religious practice and education).

For them, it can only be a religious entity and will only be re-established with the anticipated coming of the Messiah. That of course conveniently ignores the fact that the Romans, not God, destroyed the temple and forced most of the surviving Jews living in Roman Palestine into exile. So it begs the question that if he could do that via a physical entity in 79AD why couldn't he do it through the UN/Haganah in 1948?

Anyway, to get back to the point, when (in their world) the Messiah does come he will restore Israel to the Jewish people. Totally restored, so biblical Israel will be reinstated. and no fucking about with pre-1967 borders or two-state solutions.

But more than that, anyone who doesn't accept God's word and laws (i.e., the ones governing the way they live), will be wiped off the face of the earth, leaving only the true believers (i.e., them). That group includes even me, and certainly you and everyone else on this forum. There is definitely no place for Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists (particularly atheists). So no Palestinians.

In the meantime, until that happens, the Palestinians are on the land only because God hasn't yet decided to send the Messiah and get rid of all the non-believers. There's many of the Jews on the ultra-religious end of the spectrum who have basically the same belief, but they do so privately, whereas NK have decided to be quite vocal.

People holding them up as some sort of Jewish moral beacon haven't understood their motivation at all.
 
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BayernMan said:
I know it’s hard to read about rape and torture. I’ll keep your sensibilities in mind.
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You seem to enjoy reading about it. Personally I heard enough about it on October 7th last year.

If you're German (as suggested by your username) I see why you'd be uncomfortable with the idea of Jews fighting back though.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
You seem to enjoy reading about it. Personally I heard enough about it on October 7th last year.

If you're German (as suggested by your username) I see why you'd be uncomfortable with the idea of Jews fighting back though.
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My ancestors warned me about oppression and injustice. I bet many are looking on in shame as their descendants did not heed their warnings.

As the saying goes, bad things happen when good people do nothing.
 
BayernMan said:
I know it’s hard to read about rape and torture. I’ll keep your sensibilities in mind.
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Prestwich_Blue said:
You seem to enjoy reading about it. Personally I heard enough about it on October 7th last year.

If you're German (as suggested by your username) I see why you'd be uncomfortable with the idea of Jews fighting back though.
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Do we really want this to be the line of discussion?

Is there any moral high ground to be gained by presenting rape and torture by either Hamas or IDF forces as “fighting back”?
 
SebastianBlue said:
Do we really want this to be the line of discussion?

Is there any moral high ground to be gained by presenting rape and torture by either Hamas or IDF forces as “fighting back”?
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Don't we need to regulate the use of rape as a punishment?

At least that's what some insane talking head said on Israeli TV last week.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
Don't we need to regulate the use of rape as a punishment?

At least that's what some insane talking head said on Israeli TV last week.
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Goes to my point that I think we need to be careful not to inadvertently accept the premise that is being put forward by the extreme elements shouting loudest on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides.

Rape and torture is always wrong. It was wrong on 7 October. It is wrong in everything that has occurred before and since. It should never be seen as legitimate “resistance”, whether by Hamas or the IDF, or any other entity. And just because one side has done it, does not make it right that the other does it in return.

You can’t stop barbarity with more barbarity.
 
BayernMan said:
My ancestors warned me about oppression and injustice. I bet many are looking on in shame as their descendants did not heed their warnings.

As the saying goes, bad things happen when good people do nothing.
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That was a cheap jibe and I apologise.

But my ancestors, the ones who didn't emigrate from Eastern Europe like my great-grandparents (and there were a lot who decided to sit things out) were murdered in pits, or burnt alive in locked buildings, by people who just hated Jews, something which pre-dates the establishment of Israel.

I'm not in the least proud of what Netanyahu is doing now, and it is very uncomfortable viewing. It's gone well beyond an understandable response to the events of last October. I have family and friends in Israel and worry for them, and I also grieve for those in Gaza, both groups having been horribly impacted by this senseless violence.

I was out with friends last night, all of whom would proudly claim that they're Zionists, but who all recognise that you can't kill an idea with bombs, bullets and rockets. But that applies to both sides, which some on here have always seemed reluctant to accept.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
That was a cheap jibe and I apologise.

But my ancestors, the ones who didn't emigrate from Eastern Europe like my great-grandparents (and there were a lot who decided to sit things out) were murdered in pits, or burnt alive in locked buildings, by people who just hated Jews, something which pre-dates the establishment of Israel.

I'm not in the least proud of what Netanyahu is doing now, and it is very uncomfortable viewing. It's gone well beyond an understandable response to the events of last October. I have family and friends in Israel and worry for them, and I also grieve for those in Gaza, both groups having been horribly impacted by this senseless violence.

I was out with friends last night, all of whom would proudly claim that they're Zionists, but who all recognise that you can't kill an idea with bombs, bullets and rockets. But that applies to both sides, which some on here have always seemed reluctant to accept.
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No worries. These are tough times and will probably get tougher. Your story couldn’t help but make me think of this author’s experience. The sooner we all recognize each others humanity the better the world will be.

This article speaks a lot to the pain in Israel right now in a sober way in my opinion.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/a...-gaza-historian-omer-bartov?CMP=share_btn_url
 
halfcenturyup said:
Let's hope so, a lot depending on the outcome of the US election, I suppose. Let's be honest, Israel doesn't care about the "west", really, only about the US. If Trump wins, all bets are off. If Harris wins, will she be brave enough to pull the plug on Israel if they go "too far"? Jury is out on that one.
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The 'jury' is not out.

How do you figure that Netanyahu's visit to Harris and Trump, while Harris speaks from both sides of her mouth on 'wanting a ceasefire', can still come away with $3.5B in aid 'to defend itself'?

A lame duck Pres and an AIPAC funded VP are fully in support of Israeli actions through the back door.
 
BayernMan said:
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The current Iranian and Israeli regimes both win.

That is where we are now. There is actually genuine alignment, however narrow, between the leadership of Iran and the leadership of Israel on certain objectives.

Ironically (really, tragically for Iranians, Palestinians, and Israelis), this limited alignment exists in large part because they both represent the hard-line right trying to stave off more moderating forces within their own country.
 
Crouchinho said:
I think sensible thinking has been thrown out the window with this war.

Its fuelled by social justice warriors and a younger generation. Most of it is faux outrage. They scream for the people of Palestine yet vote for a party that has been funding the war. The Biden administration funded 26 billion dollars for Israel a few months ago and last week sent more jets and ammo that way.

It's the quiet left leaning people who are the most honest, yet won't speak because of being attacked by their left leaning counterparts. The boomer, Gen X and millennials remember the 9/11 attacks very well. They see how the middle East and Palestine celebrated the towers coming down. Only Israel showed support for the States.

This has lived long in the memory for a lot of Americans, right and left sided. Some of these major news channels who claim to be left leaning like to play both sides of the fence with their anti Islam and then anti semite to stir up people's emotions.

The ones out their protesting are idiots. One week they're waving placards Free Palestine, next week rubbing themselves off over a party who funds it. Also, cheering on a terrorist organisation on top of that. You cannot make it up.

My biggest concern is how much land will be given back to the Palestinian people? Will a puppet government be put in? Will they recognise them as a country?

Just when a corner is turned its more bloodshed and more generations of hate to follow. An absolute shit show.
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An excellent post.

Yours is a point I summarised on The Harris thread; that I choose not to vote for any system/ party that supports genocide and/ ot apartheid.

People on that thread cannot understand it.
 
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