Middle East Conflict

grunge said:
Mossad HQ is in the centre of Tel Aviv. when this is the other way around people would be accusing the enemy of hiding military in civilian areas.

I am not excusing the Iran stike at all but when talking about what is targeted you ( the royal you ) need to look at how things get reported around the world. Israel are bombing Civilian areas as thats where the enemy is and claim its fine and its the enemy putting there civilians in danger, so surely by there logic they are putting there civilians in danger and its fine for others to bomb there civilian areas as thats where the enemy is.

it cant be OK for one and not for the other.
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That's just what you did.
Loving the attempts to justify the Iranian barrage.
 
BlueAnorak said:
That's just what you did.
Loving the attempts to justify the Iranian barrage.
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Im not justifying it at all, Im pointing out Hypocrisy in it. One country is fine to bomb civilian areas as there are enemies there but another country isn't?

Apply the same logic to both sides for an balanced view.

Edit, For clarity. Its NOT OK for either side.
 
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BlueAnorak said:
What a load of bollox.
Tel Aviv was bombarded.
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1000 people have been killed in Lebanon and over 6000 wounded so far. 1/5th of Lebananese people have fled their homes.

The amounts of those who were civilians hasn't been published but given the huge numbers either Israeli targeting is incredibly accurate and there are thousands of dead/wounded terrorists or more likely it's the opposite.

And we're getting our knickers in a twist that Iran have fired a few hundred tin cans that seemingly did no damage at all? The proportionality of difference in force and capability is plainly obvious.
 
inbetween said:
1000 people have been killed in Lebanon and over 6000 wounded so far. 1/5th of Lebananese people have fled their homes.

The amounts of those who were civilians hasn't been published but given the huge numbers either Israeli targeting is incredibly accurate and there are thousands of dead/wounded terrorists or more likely it's the opposite.

And we're getting our knickers in a twist that Iran have fired a few hundred tin cans that seemingly did no damage at all? The proportionality of difference in force and capability is plainly obvious.
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Israel are probably feeling the pressure to get things done in the fairly narrow window of opportunity between now and the US elections. As it stands neither democrats or republicans will want to upset the Israel lobby but after the election I suspect the unequivocal support for anything they feel like doing militarily will diminish.
 
robbieh said:
Obviously many on here paint them as the bad guys. But I think you are correct.
They've got involved in Africa in a different way to how the Europeans acted a century ago. And they don't invade countries 1000s of miles away.
Quite how they can mediate here is not obvious as unlike the US, France and Britain they've had no involvement in the middle east.
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China does this by way of loans it has gone spectacularly wrong in some parts of the world in particular Sri Lanka, they are more interested in keeping their factories churning out crap than getting involved in the Middle East, but this is where the West is missing a trick go to any country that is at odds with the US and you will see massive Chinese investment, Cuba for example neatly everything that is made comes from China (in return for a large stake in their oil industry) and it will the the same in Iran, China will be cleaning up economically whilst the US goes about shooting itself in the foot
 
inbetween said:
1000 people have been killed in Lebanon and over 6000 wounded so far. 1/5th of Lebananese people have fled their homes.

The amounts of those who were civilians hasn't been published but given the huge numbers either Israeli targeting is incredibly accurate and there are thousands of dead/wounded terrorists or more likely it's the opposite.

And we're getting our knickers in a twist that Iran have fired a few hundred tin cans that seemingly did no damage at all? The proportionality of difference in force and capability is plainly obvious.
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Whataboutary.
Hezbollah and Hamas couldn't give a shit about their own people. The goal is the extermination of Israel.
If they did care they wouldn't have been launching missiles into Israel for years that Israel wouldn't need to respond to.
Just because Israel has the best anti missile defences in the world doesn't mean they should turn the other cheek all the time.
The shear volume of attacks over the last 5 years has to be responded to.
 
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Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Israel are probably feeling the pressure to get things done in the fairly narrow window of opportunity between now and the US elections. As it stands neither democrats or republicans will want to upset the Israel lobby but after the election I suspect the unequivocal support for anything they feel like doing militarily will diminish.
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The Israel lobby is quite a myth in US politics, the vast majority of american Jews lean towards the left of politics, sure there are lobby groups but every country has them. The American pubic are in general not that sophisticated in matters of foreign affairs and that's being polite they don't understand complexities this of course can bleed through to Government Policy (the invasion of Iraq for example)
 
inbetween said:
1000 people have been killed in Lebanon and over 6000 wounded so far. 1/5th of Lebananese people have fled their homes.

The amounts of those who were civilians hasn't been published but given the huge numbers either Israeli targeting is incredibly accurate and there are thousands of dead/wounded terrorists or more likely it's the opposite.

And we're getting our knickers in a twist that Iran have fired a few hundred tin cans that seemingly did no damage at all? The proportionality of difference in force and capability is plainly obvious.
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It's like the kids in the West Bank sling shotting stones at the tanks and then getting shot in the head.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Whataboutary.
Hezbollah and Hamas coukdnt give a shit about their own people. The goal is the extermination of Israel.
If they did care they wouldn't have been launching missiles into Israel for years that Israel wouldn't need to respond to.
Just because Israel has the best anti missile defences in tge world doesn't mean they should turn the other cheek all the time.
The shear volume of attacks over the last 5 years has to be responded to.
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As does the constant theft of Palestinian land in the West Bank by violent settlers aided and abetted by the Government.
 
robbieh said:
Obviously many on here paint them as the bad guys. But I think you are correct.
They've got involved in Africa in a different way to how the Europeans acted a century ago. And they don't invade countries 1000s of miles away.
Quite how they can mediate here is not obvious as unlike the US, France and Britain they've had no involvement in the middle east.
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Surely our people have sympathy for Syria, Lebanon and Palestine, but nothing we can do. Because now China is the pariah state in the international community.
Btw，only 10%~20% of Sri Lanka's debt was borrowed from China.
 
Ducado said:
And well before then, and despite all the war and destruction still they come, does anyone think that perhaps solving the bigger issue rather than the symptom might actually go someway to solving this problem because war and destruction won't in fact it's just making it worse
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That would be true if Hamas and Hezbollah wanted peace. They don't- their goal is the complete and utter destruction of Israel and it's Jewish population.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Whataboutary.
Hezbollah and Hamas coukdnt give a shit about their own people. The goal is the extermination of Israel.
If they did care they wouldn't have been launching missiles into Israel for years that Israel wouldn't need to respond to.
Just because Israel has the best anti missile defences in tge world doesn't mean they should turn the other cheek all the time.
The shear volume of attacks over the last 5 years has to be responded to.
Click to expand...
Of course they don't care but Israel is a country and should hold itself to international standards and especially military rules of engagement.

Why did we bother spending 10 years trying to kill ISIS in slowtime? Why didn't we just obliterate every single city in the entire Middle East known to harbour ISIS? At least we'd get em in the end? Obviously the reason why is it'd result in millions of dead innocents.

If the UK commits to a strike then that has to go through hoops and lawyers to ensure that the risk to civilians is basically zero. Other forms of attack have to be considered if the civilian collateral is high for example they would use smaller guided bombs or send in special forces or something else.

Do these rules not apply to Israel? The rules say that if they can't kill terrorists without killing civilians or don't mitigate that risk then the methods they're using are wrong and potentially illegal. Israel can still defend itself within those rules but nobody can justify that levelling entire cities of civilians is self-defence.
 
BlueAnorak said:
That would be true if Hamas and Hezbollah wanted peace. They don't- their goal is the complete and utter destruction of Israel and it's Jewish population.
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I am sure there are many people in both organisations or supporters that think that way, I once knew a Catholic from Northern Ireland who told me peace would only come by the expulsion of all the protestants from Northern Island, and it was a genuine strand of opinion on the the extremes of Irish Republicanism at one stage, but peace prevailed not perfect but here we are

Stated goals are actually pretty meaningless without the means to carry them out, you are making the mistake of taking notice of the extremes of Arab and Muslim thinking, I could point you to extremist Jewish groups who want to create a greater Israel (somewhat akin to the ancient lands) and the expulsion of all non jews, it's quite easy to find them as many of them are in the Israeli government as we speak

We can go around in circles with they said this and they said that, and ignore what the problem is a people suffering dreadful oppression and brutality, and until we do this wanton destruction will go on and on
 
Until both sides accept that the other side has a right to exist and self governance with clearly defined borders (and enforceable penalties for non observance) then this is going nowhere.
 
inbetween said:
Of course they don't care but Israel is a country and should hold itself to international standards and especially military rules of engagement.

Why did we bother spending 10 years trying to kill ISIS in slowtime? Why didn't we just obliterate every single city in the entire Middle East known to harbour ISIS? At least we'd get em in the end? Obviously the reason why is it'd result in millions of dead innocents.

If the UK commits to a strike then that has to go through hoops and lawyers to ensure that the risk to civilians is basically zero. Other forms of attack have to be considered if the civilian collateral is high for example they would use smaller guided bombs or send in special forces or something else.

Do these rules not apply to Israel? The rules say that if they can't kill terrorists without killing civilians or don't mitigate that risk then the methods they're using are wrong and potentially illegal. Israel can still defend itself within those rules but nobody can justify that levelling entire cities of civilians is self-defence.
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Tbf, they’re surrounded by countries, people and ideologies that are trying to wipe them from the face of the earth by any means possible, yet they’re expected to accept and allow the full integration of said peoples into their country, lives and institutions…and sit down with them to talk about “peace,” while only serving as a proxy for a much larger, stronger, and militarily significant adversary that doesn’t like to get its hands dirty.

There’s not many places on earth where you can look at the horizon, in all directions, and say, “They want to annihilate us!”
 
ChicagoBlue said:
Tbf, they’re surrounded by countries, people and ideologies that are trying to wipe them from the face of the earth by any means possible, yet they’re expected to accept and allow the full integration of said peoples into their country, lives and institutions…and sit down with them to talk about “peace,” while only serving as a proxy for a much larger, stronger, and militarily significant adversary that doesn’t like to get its hands dirty.

There’s not many places on earth where you can look at the horizon, in all directions, and say, “They want to annihilate us!”
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Do you think Israel will give the land back that theve stolen and stop the occupation. That will kinda help things don't you think?
 
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