US Presidential Election, Nov 5th 2024

[TinFoilHat]

Speak for youself, I have never voted based on which party is promising I keep more of my money.

Nor have I.

I said theres a hypocritical majority of people who do as this result showed.

I've heard a lot of people say they had more money under Trump and that's their motivation for voting for him.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Don't think it's the majority even, when the tories win elections they can be the only party talking about tax cuts. They never get near 50%.

Let's see how people react when Farage leads the party.

 

[mackenzie]

Nor have I.

I said theres a hypocritical majority of people who do as this result showed.

I've heard a lot of people say they had more money under Trump and that's their motivation for voting for him.

I suppose it's where your income is to begin with. If you are on the breadline, or struggling, then of course money will be a big concern. Some people don't have the luxury of a bigger picture.
Can't blame them for worrying about their income.

 

[blueparrot]

Let's see how people react when Farage leads the party.

Think the vote will go down myself.Still though add tories and reform together, still won't get 50%.

 

[TinFoilHat]

I suppose it's where your income is to begin with. If you are on the breadline, or struggling, then of course money will be a big concern. Some people don't have the luxury of a bigger picture.
Can't blame them for worrying about their income.

All fair points.

 

[west didsblue]

Don't think it's the majority even, when the tories win elections they can be the only party talking about tax cuts. They never get near 50%.

Currently Trump is on 51% of the popular vote, although there’s still a lot of votes to be counted in states that have already declared so it’s quite possible that he could end up with just under 50% which would be a minority. However, it doesn’t really matter whether it’s a majority or about half. It’s still a lot of people, and if it’s just under half it doesn’t really detract from his point.

 

[blueparrot]

Currently Trump is on 51% of the popular vote, although there’s still a lot of votes to be counted in states that have already declared so it’s quite possible that he could end up with just under 50% which would be a minority. However, it doesn’t really matter whether it’s a majority or about half. It’s still a lot of people, and if it’s just under half it doesn’t really detract from his point.

To fair I got distracted onto the UK ,even so it does detract from his point that a political leader could be right of Gengis Khan. A serial rapist, nonce and fraudster, and a majority,which to me implies well over half would support them for a few tax cuts. While it may be a bit truer in the States than here I think it's still wide of the mark.

 

[bugsyblue]

I honestly do not think Trump is a fascist. To be a fascist would require him to have an ideology, which I don't think he has. He just does not come across as that kind of character. If socialism was in vogue, Trup would be advocating leftist policies. However, he is driven by self interest and supported by ideologues primarily of the Christian evangelical type and alt right bad faith actors linked to nefarious funders. This is what may well drive the policy approach of the Trump government.

I think Labour and other centrist parties need to learn a lesson from what has happened in the US and other countries where the right have had success: listen to the issues of the working class and act on their concerns. The more centrist parties simply offer retention of the status quo minus some minor tweaks, whilst asking the electorate for patience.

Hopefully, further recovery of economies, including improved public services, will lead to the marginalisation of populism, alt right, far right etc.. Goodness knows when this will happen, if at all, in the medium term.

When I think about the current state of politics I cannot help but think about what Plato once said about democracy: it is one of the later stages in the decline of the ideal state. It is so bad that people ultimately want a dictator to save them from it.

You're spot on with a lot of what you say. I would have loved to have seen what Bernie Sanders would have done in four years as president. He was the bastion of light and hope on the left over there which is essentially right or centre.

The problem the left have though is two fold. Not saying Corbyn was the right leader but look how he was attacked! Not only from the right but also from the establishment, financial institutes, media, and the centre. That is a mountain of hurdles to overcome, even with huge grassroots support. It's why Bernie didn't get the primary (the dems fucked him over because they feared the backlash from the establishment and institutes). Particularly in America if you don't have billionaire financiers or corporations behind you no way you're getting in. And socialist leaders simply won't be backed by those figures. It's quite depressing. And more why the working class mistakenly put their faith in the right because the centre keeps the status quo and the actual left isn't viable in the US, and it's becoming less and less of a realistic option in the UK.

 

[Withnail]

I bet Lammy is looking forward to dealing with the orange one.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

The standards you are willing to accept are the standards that define you.

If you voted for a self-confessed pussy grabbing, adjudicated rapist and convicted felon, congratulations, you are a ****.

 

[Johnny Mars Bar]

Fascism is what capitalism does when the conventional 'democratic' system fails them. It is their last bolt hole.

Capitalists will always prefer fascism to communism, and often they prefer it to even the most democratic forms of socialism.

To be honest, if Adolf had played his cards a little bit differently, the UK and USA would have been his best mates. The problem was that the Great War was only 20 years back (easy to forget that) and everyone who was anyone had lost relatives and friends in it. So there was an abiding suspicion of Germany. (We still see its ghost in certain quarters to this day.)

Utter waffle, and I think you are conflating state capitalism favoured by a lot of authoritarian regimes with the western capitalist view of free market economics.

 

[BlueHammer85]

He’s not trying to gaslight. He dislikes trump like how I dislike him. And Trump’s rhetoric has racist undertones which opens the door to this sort of criticism but we have to be better than this. This is the problem with modern politics. Everything is blown out of proportion, each side attack and play dirty against each other, and sadly the dems have ended up playing trump at his own game. And lost. The more he’s called Hitler (which as we’ve discussed is factually not true) the more his supporters rally around him and I do think it helped contribute to those swing voters to turn against the dems.

It’s refreshing we have a prime minister that isn’t populist at least.

Hold up , most of the facist warnings were coming from Trumps former inner circle, generals that have worked with him for years.

Harris run a campaign predominantly of hope, love and change.

 

[inbetween]

Fascism is what capitalism does when the conventional 'democratic' system fails them. It is their last bolt hole.

Capitalists will always prefer fascism to communism, and often they prefer it to even the most democratic forms of socialism.

To be honest, if Adolf had played his cards a little bit differently, the UK and USA would have been his best mates. The problem was that the Great War was only 20 years back (easy to forget that) and everyone who was anyone had lost relatives and friends in it. So there was an abiding suspicion of Germany. (We still see its ghost in certain quarters to this day.)

This is a bit excessive because Trump has not advocated for an outright fascist state. At best he has advocated for stricter border controls and an illegal migrant deterrence and that's not controversial or fascist.

This is a big issue to Americans and it probably should be given literally millions of people have entered the US illegally. The numbers who attempted to enter the US illegally increased MASSIVELY under Biden. This could be perceived by many as an invasion given the huge numbers. What was Harris's policy?

I don't like Trump but it cannot be reduced to fascism, there are not 72 million facists and racists in the US. It's a problem and one person gave a vocal answer to that problem whereas the other didn't. The other also called anybody worried about this problem a racist or facist... So is it any surprise that they voted for the boogy man?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I think that’s fair.

The problem seems to be the balance is waaaay off between interesting expert and conspiracy theorist/bullshitter!

I’ll give you one guess which category Trump fell into!

Gobshite?
Just a guess.

 

[Johnny Mars Bar]

I bet Lammy is looking forward to dealing with the orange one.

Being able to be diplomatic with people you dislike and disagree with is basically number one on the list of skills required of a Foreign Secretary. He'll have been preparing for it for a long time and they'll have a strategy in place.

Same with every other foreign leader you might not get along with.

I think Lammy & Starmer will do a better job than Theresa May did last time anyway. That was painful, not least of all for her.

 

[BlueHammer85]

My views on this have evolved from frustration that so many people were fooled into voting for Trump in 2016 to disappointment that they weren’t actually fooled but actively prefer to have a convicted criminal and rapist as the leader of their country.

A entertaining villain v a normal boring politician - only one winner in America.

Will be same for UK in future .

I prey I’m wrong.

 

[Johnny Mars Bar]

This is a bit excessive because Trump has not advocated for an outright fascist state. At best he has advocated for stricter border controls and an illegal migrant deterrence and that's not controversial or fascist.

This is a big issue to Americans and it probably should be given literally millions of people have entered the US illegally. The numbers who attempted to enter the US illegally increased MASSIVELY under Biden.

I don't like Trump but it cannot be reduced to fascism, there are not 72 million facists and racists in the US. It's a problem and one person gave a vocal answer to that problem whereas the other didn't. The other also instead called anybody who worried about this problem racist or facist. Is it any surprise then that they voted for the boogy man?

Indeed. People called the likes of Johnson a fascist, which is frankly ludicrous.

Trump is a nationalist and protectionist, calling him a fascist is stupid.

It is also an insult to people who live in genuinely fascist dictatorships around the world and throughout history.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Fascism is what capitalism does when the conventional 'democratic' system fails them. It is their last bolt hole.

Utter waffle, and I think you are conflating state capitalism favoured by a lot of authoritarian regimes with the western capitalist view of free market economics.

Last bolt hole.

 

[Johnny Mars Bar]

My views on this have evolved from frustration that so many people were fooled into voting for Trump in 2016 to disappointment that they weren’t actually fooled but actively prefer to have a convicted criminal and rapist as the leader of their country.

My view is that they voted for him despite of that. Opinion polling was clear in that Trump supporters were fully aware he didn't not care about them, but they trusted him more on the economy than they did Harris.

A lot of people held their nose and voted with their wallet. It's how people always, always, always vote. Without fail.

As soon as the post-covid inflation bubble hit, this government was toast. I have been saying this for two years. Inflation and the perception of a weak economy always kills governments. Add to that the left's consistent attitude of treating the population like idiots, telling them they're better off when they are tangibly poorer, and it really is game over.

This election had nothing to do with Trump's crimes/indiscretions/unpalatable opinions.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I don't like Trump but it cannot be reduced to fascism, there are not 72 million facists and racists in the US. It's a problem and one person gave a vocal answer to that problem whereas the other didn't. The other also called anybody worried about this problem a racist or facist... So is it any surprise that they voted for the boogy man?

It's worth posting this again. Trump says a lot of things.