How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

The idea of a “United States of Europe” has roots in various historical proposals for European unity.

Early concepts emerged from thinkers like William Penn in the late 17th century and Charles de Saint-Pierre in the early 18th century, advocating for cooperation among European states to prevent wars. Victor Hugo famously popularized the term in 1849, envisioning a European federation akin to the United States of America.

Post-World War II, Winston Churchill revived this concept in 1946, emphasizing unity as essential for peace and stability in Europe.

Therefore, the 21st century concept of the EU was long in the making, and has served its primary purpose. However, with the advent of unforeseen unfettered cross-border migration, it was only a matter of time before an economic crisis created an “others” mentality and for nationalism, no matter how watered down to make it palatable, to rear its ugly head.

Brexit was always going to be a political hot potato, by design, because change is often difficult, so one side had to make it a “hot” issue to achieve that change.

Now that Brexit has been realized, it feels like some people need to move on and figure out a way for it to work best with our allies and trading partners, be they close neighbors or not. It seems like close neighbor trading partners help keep costs down, but if it comes with vindictive caveats, then any nation is bound to reject such caveats and move forward with others, even at some cost.

No country should have to genuflect for another, especially a supposed ally nation or group of nations.
There are no vindictive caveats just rules that make a single market work. The same way the States work as a single market but have rules for anywhere outside that market. The UK thought it could leave the single market and the rules that we took advantage of as a member wouldn't apply to us,and that's caused great damage.
To be fair but for a terrible brexit deal they might not have applied to us,the same way they don't apply to a part of the UK.
 
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There are nutters on here who continually bang on about how it would be better to be in the single market because then we'd all have the same rules etc but why does it matter?

I'm a nutter. It matters because thats how you trade with a massive bloc on your doorstep. You follow their rules and requirements so what we have become is a vassal state - we take and comply with rules we have no say on unlike member states. These are usually highlighted in the Telegraph as "Brexit betrayals" but in truth they are rules we have to comply with or completely lose markets
 
Now that Brexit has been realized

It still hasn't.

There was no post-Brexit strategy beyond "avoid accepting any changes that will show it up as the shit show that it is".


We still don't have a veterinary agreement with the EU which hampers agri-food exports and certification ( the most often given reason is that we had a lot of vets working here from EU countries who just went home when we signalled they were not welcome here ) it would also help with regulatory alignment.

Tomorrow is the 4th anniversary of us leaving the EU - 3 1/2 of those years were under the same Tory Govt that took us out 8 years ago. You'd think they would have sorted something out by now. Its sorting it out that is behind Starmer's "closer relationship with the EU" mission.

 
It still hasn't.

There was no post-Brexit strategy beyond "avoid accepting any changes that will show it up as the shit show that it is".


We still don't have a veterinary agreement with the EU which hampers agri-food exports and certification ( the most often given reason is that we had a lot of vets working here from EU countries who just went home when we signalled they were not welcome here ) it would also help with regulatory alignment.

Tomorrow is the 4th anniversary of us leaving the EU - 3 1/2 of those years were under the same Tory Govt that took us out 8 years ago. You'd think they would have sorted something out by now. Its sorting it out that is behind Starmer's "closer relationship with the EU" mission.


Closer relationship meaning what exactly?
 
There are no vindictive caveats just rules that make a single market work. The same way the States work as a single market but have rules for anywhere outside that market. The UK thought it could leave the single market and the rules that we took advantage of as a member wouldn't apply to us,and that's caused great damage.
To be fair but for a terrible brexit deal they might not have applied to us,the same way they don't apply to a part of the UK.
I believe the EU has tried to make an example of Britain for allowing democracy to work, in order to disincentivize any other potential leavers from trying to leave.

Don’t have a dog in this hunt or a villa in Spain, so I’ll leave it there!
 
I believe the EU has tried to make an example of Britain for allowing democracy to work, in order to disincentivize any other potential leavers from trying to leave.

Don’t have a dog in this hunt or a villa in Spain, so I’ll leave it there!
The EU didn't do anything but implement rules we voted for. Rules we helped write.
 
It still hasn't.

There was no post-Brexit strategy beyond "avoid accepting any changes that will show it up as the shit show that it is".


We still don't have a veterinary agreement with the EU which hampers agri-food exports and certification ( the most often given reason is that we had a lot of vets working here from EU countries who just went home when we signalled they were not welcome here ) it would also help with regulatory alignment.

Tomorrow is the 4th anniversary of us leaving the EU - 3 1/2 of those years were under the same Tory Govt that took us out 8 years ago. You'd think they would have sorted something out by now. Its sorting it out that is behind Starmer's "closer relationship with the EU" mission.

I meant “realized” as in “no longer part of the EU,” not “dotted all the i’s and crossed all the t’s.”
 
The arguments on the EU fall apart given the fact that the EU market is not growing. Germany has not grown at all for nearly 2 years and actually not a single top 5 EU country has truly grown beyond 1% for a decade! So why is EU membership so important? Why should we harmonise ourselves to a market that currently offers us nothing?

Unfortunately the growth in the world lies elsewhere and the real problem is the EU is hopelessly positioned to take advantage of it. It is too slow to keep pace and as a political entity it is naturally always going to tie itself up in regulation and obsession over red tape. This has meant that European businesses are rapidly becoming uncompetitive.

There are nutters on here who continually bang on about how it would be better to be in the single market because then we'd all have the same rules etc but why does it matter? Rules do not create business or innovation, we'd be better off without any of it. It recently took the EU 5+ years to agree and then impose a standard of USB plug for mobile devices but who on here actually gives a toss when the product price goes up 10% as a result?

The best thing that the EU can do is tear itself up and put competitiveness back on the menu, give people something to hope for and a livelihood to work towards. That may even mean yes trading freely with the UK despite the UK not being part of its rules club.

It won't do this though and unfortunately the trajectory otherwise is to proceed with further decades of flat, dead stagnation whilst the working classes and their livelihoods continue to be swallowed up by the exports and fruits of the relentless Chinese growth machine. And we wonder why the populist right and anti-establishment is growing in stature?
Many SME that had reached their market limit within the UK had an easy market in which to expand if they so wished. they knew the standards to which they had to adhere and so it was easy to trade in the EU. That option has now significantly diminished with them either not bothering or actually setting up separate businesses in the EU, the proceeds of which remain in the EU rather than back here in the UK.

We harmonise because one set of rules satisfy the requirement in 27 other territories. There are another 185+ territories that may well have the same number of different rules to comply with.
 
I believe the EU has tried to make an example of Britain for allowing democracy to work, in order to disincentivize any other potential leavers from trying to leave.

Don’t have a dog in this hunt or a villa in Spain, so I’ll leave it there!

In what way do you think they did that? I’m not sure how we’re any different to any other non member of the EU.
 
Who said they were set in stone,they change all the time,there were even opt outs. They were there for the benefit of members and associate members. Not for non members.
I'm glad we have cleared that up, rules can change so as an example you could have freedom of trade without free movement of people if you wanted to. Good to know.
 
I think it's this simple.
The EU is basically the creation of a USA/USSR (big, big state) in Europe. It's great for people who think that their own country is run by inept politicians and would therefore rather be ruled over by those much more sensible European politicians and have safety in numbers. However, many people would much rather run their own business and take their chances on the success or failure of that business based on their own efforts (small state). Many of us just do not want layer upon layer of rule makers telling us what is good for us, we can decide that ourselves.
Never took you for an anarchist.
 
Optimism? I ain't the one complaining. I never was particularly bothered about the economics. Apart from Spam and Pret jokes in response to the Armaegeddon view being pushed which I didn't believe and still hasn't happened.

We can now vote in remain politicians and those wanting electoral refor.......

Oh yeah that's a bit awkward isn't it......
 
I'm glad we have cleared that up, rules can change so as an example you could have freedom of trade without free movement of people if you wanted to. Good to know.
Free movement of labour you mean, we always had the right to remove those not working.Not sure why you'd want to scrap it though.
 
People/labour pedantry alert. Wanting to or not isn't relevant to the point neither is not working. Dishonest lot you remainers.
No it isnt pedantry it's 2 very different things that was used dishonestly in the campaign to convince voters people could just come here when they want and claim benefits ,use services.Saying the distinction isn't relevant is to put it mildly ,wrong.
 

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