How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Vic]

I rarely comment on this thread as I know it's mostly occupied with posters who can't accept what happened and have convinced themselves Brexit was the end of their world as they knew it. I realise I won't change their view or stop them complaining as the thread was specifically set up for them to moan about Brexit.

I just like to offer an alternative more positive view point. Anyway I feel its time to leave them to it.

But what is the positive? It's not the end if the world, or it's not quite that bad? It's cut net immigration? (Without that as a promise, Leave would never have won.) There are some minor freedoms to do our own thing but they're massively outweighed by regulatory divergence (even if we've dropped some of the madder ideas about e.g., setting up UK-only labelling for the sake of it).

We're moaning about Brexit but we also moan about people who criticise the moaning but really can't come up with any real "positives". Test question is always "How has Brexit improved your life?"

 

[bluethrunthru]

I still think we'd have been better staying in and trying to change some of the things we didn't agree with rather than say we're not playing any more and leaving. We'll never know if it would have worked out but IMHO it might just have been better for us to stick at it. I certainly struggle to see what improvements we've seen here since leaving and I quite liked being "European".

but instead of being in the tent pissing out we would be outside the tent pissing in and that held appeal to some people many of whom had no thoughts beyond that because they genuinely believed the EU needed us.

 

[hampshireblue]

Ultimately Brexit is largely irrelevant now. It's happened and is in the past. The economic impact has since been overtaken and almost made irrelevant in economic terms by the pandemic and the conflict in Ukraine. Putin's slightly strange decision to blow up nordstream rather than just turn off the tap at his end has had more impact really.

Well not really as there are proven statistics showing the UK economy to be significantly worse off than it could be. Apparently Brexit would reduce red tape and paperwork for business. M&S have just announced they have had to build a storage facility for the additional paperwork caused by it. And they won't be the only ones that have significantly added costs some of which will have been passed on to the consumer. The economic impact is ongoing.

 

[bluethrunthru]

what a load of bollocks - he pulls this stunt once a fucking month. Here he faces 40% tax on his £70m. In Spain from what I read its 34% plus he will pay 3.5% wealth tax per anum - I do hope he lives a long (taxable) life

The UK’s richest plumber from £70m fortune quitting Britain over Labour tax raid

Charlie Mullins is the country's richest plumber but has moved to Spain over fears he could be hit with a nasty inheritance tax bill.

www.express.co.uk

 

[west didsblue]

Ultimately Brexit is largely irrelevant now. It's happened and is in the past. The economic impact has since been overtaken and almost made irrelevant in economic terms by the pandemic and the conflict in Ukraine. Putin's slightly strange decision to blow up nordstream rather than just turn off the tap at his end has had more impact really.

The economic impact is ongoing and will continue for the foreseeable future. You’ve just stopped noticing it because it’s become normal. Fairly sure that every company that imports and exports to Europe are still pissed off about their increased costs and complexity of doing business, and there are millions of people who have now got used to increased restrictions on their movements with a significant number unable to live and work where they want. It’s far from irrelevant but people have mostly accepted it and have learnt to live with it so don’t go on about it any more.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The economic impact is ongoing and will continue for the foreseeable future. You’ve just stopped noticing it because it’s become normal. Fairly sure that every company that imports and exports to Europe are still pissed off about their increased costs and complexity of doing business, and there are millions of people who have now got used to increased restrictions on their movements with a significant number unable to live and work where they want. It’s far from irrelevant but people have mostly accepted it and have learnt to live with it so don’t go on about it any more.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more.

 

[BrianW]

I know for a fact that one small company has recently stopped exporting to the EU not because of bureaucracy as such, but because in his line of work, it is impossible to meet the requirements. (A larger concern would need an agent within the EU but might be able to bear the costs.)

I also know a small importer who is buried in extra paperwork. The whole point of their business is to bring food in from the EU.

These are real-world realities, not notional problems. And the reality is entirely negative for these businesses (and other similar enterprises) and the UK itself.

Yet the Tories laughably claim to understand business and to support it.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I know for a fact that one small company has recently stopped exporting to the EU not because of bureaucracy as such, but because in his line of work, it is impossible to meet the requirements. (A larger concern would need an agent within the EU but might be able to bear the costs.)

I also know a small importer who is buried in extra paperwork. The whole point of their business is to bring food in from the EU.

These are real-world realities, not notional problems. And the reality is entirely negative for these businesses (and other similar enterprises) and the UK itself.

Yet the Tories laughably claim to understand business and to support it.

whereas since we applied Brexit ( spoiler we still haven't fully ) the EU has been able to export their goods to the UK with ease because have not employed the necessities to do the checks to comply with the agreement WE SIGNED thanks to Foxy the Showman - the reason the EU have not complained is because they can shift exports to us for fun - as can smugglers

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I know for a fact that one small company has recently stopped exporting to the EU not because of bureaucracy as such, but because in his line of work, it is impossible to meet the requirements. (A larger concern would need an agent within the EU but might be able to bear the costs.)

I also know a small importer who is buried in extra paperwork. The whole point of their business is to bring food in from the EU.

These are real-world realities, not notional problems. And the reality is entirely negative for these businesses (and other similar enterprises) and the UK itself.

Yet the Tories laughably claim to understand business and to support it.

The thing I never got my head round during the referendum campaign was how the talk of cutting red tape being a Brexit benefit never seemed to be challenged. It was a wholly irrational and unsustainable claim. Not the only one of course, but one that went unchallenged.

It was obvious, straightforward and undeniable that red tape in dealing with our biggest market would inevitably increase.

How could it not?

 

[BrianW]

To almost quote Herman Goering 'When someone mentions red tape I reach for my revolver.'

It's one of those Aunt Sallies that Tories (in particular) throw up, and the average Joe nods his head because none of us enjoy filling in forms. But the truth is that much so-called red tape is necessary to protect good standards. When you try to cut 'bureaucracy' you almost inevitably increase it. It seems to be an iron law of nature.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Were there not threads on boards all over the place twenty years ago about how shite the EU was? Despite the fact we were members at the time?

Don’t mistake debate about how shite Brexit has been for a lack of acceptance that it’s happened and isn’t being reversed.

It’s the defining political decision of the 21st century. Why shouldn’t people who opposed it talk about how wank it’s been? That’s a perfectly normal human response.

And since it’s happened, I’m sure any bona fide benefits from sources other than the usual contributors to this thread would be genuinely welcome.

No one is precluded from pointing the realised benefits out.

I’m all ears.

 

[inbetween]

The arguments on the EU fall apart given the fact that the EU market is not growing. Germany has not grown at all for nearly 2 years and actually not a single top 5 EU country has truly grown beyond 1% for a decade! So why is EU membership so important? Why should we harmonise ourselves to a market that currently offers us nothing?

Unfortunately the growth in the world lies elsewhere and the real problem is the EU is hopelessly positioned to take advantage of it. It is too slow to keep pace and as a political entity it is naturally always going to tie itself up in regulation and obsession over red tape. This has meant that European businesses are rapidly becoming uncompetitive.

There are nutters on here who continually bang on about how it would be better to be in the single market because then we'd all have the same rules etc but why does it matter? Rules do not create business or innovation, we'd be better off without any of it. It recently took the EU 5+ years to agree and then impose a standard of USB plug for mobile devices but who on here actually gives a toss when the product price goes up 10% as a result?

The best thing that the EU can do is tear itself up and put competitiveness back on the menu, give people something to hope for and a livelihood to work towards. That may even mean yes trading freely with the UK despite the UK not being part of its rules club.

It won't do this though and unfortunately the trajectory otherwise is to proceed with further decades of flat, dead stagnation whilst the working classes and their livelihoods continue to be swallowed up by the exports and fruits of the relentless Chinese growth machine. And we wonder why the populist right and anti-establishment is growing in stature?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The arguments on the EU fall apart given the fact that the EU market is not growing. Germany has not grown at all for nearly 2 years and actually not a single top 5 EU country has truly grown beyond 1% for a decade! So why is EU membership so important? Why should we harmonise ourselves to a market that currently offers us nothing?

Absolutely preposterous paragraph. Because it’s not grown as previously for a period it thereby offers us ‘nothing’? That’s your basis for any arguments supporting more integration with the EU ‘falling apart’?

It’s a ridiculous line of argument.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Absolutely preposterous paragraph. Because it’s not grown as previously for a period it thereby offers us ‘nothing’? That’s your basis for any arguments supporting more integration with the EU ‘falling apart’?

It’s a ridiculous line of argument.

It’s the only argument out there as there’s nothing else to crow about.

 

[hilts]

A bit of revisionism there. I seem to recall lots of posters saying (of voting Leave) "We knew what we were voting for" but you're now arguing that they are not to blame - because they didn't know what they were voting for!

Its almost like you can't put 52% or 48% of people into one group who all have exactly the same ideas to the last detail.

Who knew.

 

[hilts]

I rarely comment on this thread as I know it's mostly occupied with posters who can't accept what happened and have convinced themselves Brexit was the end of their world as they knew it. I realise I won't change their view or stop them complaining as the thread was specifically set up for them to moan about Brexit.

I just like to offer an alternative more positive view point. Anyway I feel its time to leave them to it.

If ever there was a thread that proves time isn't always a great healer this is it.

 

[Palerider]

I think it's this simple.
The EU is basically the creation of a USA/USSR (big, big state) in Europe. It's great for people who think that their own country is run by inept politicians and would therefore rather be ruled over by those much more sensible European politicians and have safety in numbers. However, many people would much rather run their own business and take their chances on the success or failure of that business based on their own efforts (small state). Many of us just do not want layer upon layer of rule makers telling us what is good for us, we can decide that ourselves.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

If ever there was a thread that proves time isn't always a great healer this is it.

Surely that’s the United thread!

 

[hilts]

Were there not threads on boards all over the place twenty years ago about how shite the EU was? Despite the fact we were members at the time?

Don’t mistake debate about how shite Brexit has been for a lack of acceptance that it’s happened and isn’t being reversed.

It’s the defining political decision of the 21st century. Why shouldn’t people who opposed it talk about how wank it’s been? That’s a perfectly normal human response.

And since it’s happened, I’m sure any bona fide benefits from sources other than the usual contributors to this thread would be genuinely welcome.

No one is precluded from pointing the realised benefits out.

I’m all ears.

You don’t offer any viewpoint. You play devil’s advocate and WUM the thread.

Unfortunately as mentioned previously some posters are so bigoted in their view that anyone not agreeing with them on their echo chamber thread has to be a wum.
For too many posters it's a place to vent and nothing else. I'm not sure debate is

Brexit has worsened the economy over and over and over again, day in day out, year in year out is of any use whatsoever.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

The idea of a “United States of Europe” has roots in various historical proposals for European unity.

Early concepts emerged from thinkers like William Penn in the late 17th century and Charles de Saint-Pierre in the early 18th century, advocating for cooperation among European states to prevent wars. Victor Hugo famously popularized the term in 1849, envisioning a European federation akin to the United States of America.

Post-World War II, Winston Churchill revived this concept in 1946, emphasizing unity as essential for peace and stability in Europe.

Therefore, the 21st century concept of the EU was long in the making, and has served its primary purpose. However, with the advent of unforeseen unfettered cross-border migration, it was only a matter of time before an economic crisis created an “others” mentality and for nationalism, no matter how watered down to make it palatable, to rear its ugly head.

Brexit was always going to be a political hot potato, by design, because change is often difficult, so one side had to make it a “hot” issue to achieve that change.

Now that Brexit has been realized, it feels like some people need to move on and figure out a way for it to work best with our allies and trading partners, be they close neighbors or not. It seems like close neighbor trading partners help keep costs down, but if it comes with vindictive caveats, then any nation is bound to reject such caveats and move forward with others, even at some cost.

No country should have to genuflect for another, especially a supposed ally nation or group of nations.