How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[ChicagoBlue]

Nice deflection.

Ignores political realities to make that “graph.”

And, I’m not saying that is one-sided. The fact that there is a competing political EU interest is the point!

It was meant to be a trading bloc, not a political homogenization of different peoples with vastly different histories being shoehorned into Northern European political imperatives.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Ignores political realities to make that “graph.”

And, I’m not saying that is one-sided. The fact that there is a competing political EU interest is the point!

It was meant to be a trading bloc, not a political homogenization of different peoples with vastly different histories being shoehorned into Northern European political imperatives.

You're just ranting incoherently now. You claimed there was an ultimatum, that's simply not true. We chose our position. We don't have play the victim here, we made our choices.

The EU was never just a trading bloc, it was always envisaged as a means to cement peace, and that was always clear right from before we joined. You may or may not like that, but it is the reality.

Anyway, I knew I should never have commented here, so that's me out.

Happy New Year blues!

 

[blueparrot]

Ignores political realities to make that “graph.”

And, I’m not saying that is one-sided. The fact that there is a competing political EU interest is the point!

It was meant to be a trading bloc, not a political homogenization of different peoples with vastly different histories being shoehorned into Northern European political imperatives.

You are ignoring the point that our current relationship with the EU is not dictated to by the EU in some vindictive reaction to the vote. It’s not it’s entirely down to choices made by the UK government from the choices offered to the UK by the EU. So if it causes problems for the UK, and I believe it does, then it’s down to the UK government to reassess and improve the relationship, which it is doing now with a new government.Not enough or quick enough for me, but at least it realises the best direction of travel.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

You're just ranting incoherently now. You claimed there was an ultimatum, that's simply not true. We chose our position. We don't have play the victim here, we made our choices.

I never said the ultimatum wasn’t based on what the UK wanted, merely that it was not on terms the EU would approve.

The EU was never just a trading bloc, it was always envisaged as a means to cement peace, and that was always clear right from before we joined. You may or may not like that, but it is the reality.

Exactly! The EU wasn’t, but the two stepping stones to get there? Were they failures or just stepping stones laid out for all to follow? What was wrong with the simple notion of “Common Market”? Was tariff-free trade and the reduction in bureaucratic red tape such a bad thing? Why did it have to become a centrally controlled political bureaucracy?

And, the notion that anyone can “cement peace” by forcing bureaucratic control is ridiculous.

Anyway, I knew I should never have commented here, so that's me out.

I hope I haven’t caused that sentiment? I have enjoyed your discussion.

Happy New Year blues!

Happy New Year to you!

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

The tide doesn’t come in and out!

The water stays where it is and the earth rotates underneath it!

Pedantics, pedantics , pedantics .
Because of the moon’s gravitational pull there is a bulge of water at the nearest and farthest points from the moon.
This in effect causes a massive wave of water which when it reaches a coast causes a high tide. So relative to the land the tide does come in and go out.

Explain it your way or mine, neither way takes away from the point he was making.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Trade and politics are not separate!

How could they ever be, especially in today’s world?

What are the sanctions against Russia other than the two operating simultaneously and in conjunction with each other?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Pedantics, pedantics , pedantics .
Because of the moon’s gravitational pull there is a bulge of water at the nearest and farthest points from the moon.
This in effect causes a massive wave of water which when it reaches a coast causes a high tide. So relative to the land the tide does come in and go out.

Explain it your way or mine, neither way takes away from the point he was making.

I thought it was an interesting perspective on an otherwise “common knowledge” point.

One man’s pedantry appears to be another man’s interesting point of science meant to stimulate, not suppress, thought.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Trade and politics are not separate!

It’s not the separation that’s in question, but how they are connected. Subjugation or cooperation?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I thought it was an interesting perspective on an otherwise “common knowledge” point.

One man’s pedantry appears to be another man’s interesting point of science meant to stimulate, not suppress, thought.

Well when you put it that way, perhaps.
How you worded it sounded like a denial of his substantive point of the futility of trying to solve Brexit being akin to trying to stop the tides.
After all I think King Kanute tried that ahead of you and got nowhere.

 

[blueparrot]

Well when you put it that way, perhaps.
How you worded it sounded like a denial of his substantive point of the futility of trying to solve Brexit being akin to trying to stop the tides.
After all I think King Kanute tried that ahead of you and got nowhere.

To be fair King Canute never tried to stop the tides he was trying to prove he couldn’t control the elements unlike god.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Well when you put it that way, perhaps.
How you worded it sounded like a denial of his substantive point of the futility of trying to solve Brexit being akin to trying to stop the tides.
After all I think King Kanute tried that ahead of you and got nowhere.

Nope, just an interesting perspective on “settled science.” After all, time and tide wait for no man! ;-)

And, the tide science is not from me. I heard it from Neil De Grasse Tyson.

Another of his that I like very much is:

I am in the universe and the universe is in me.

It speaks to the fact that everything in the universe is made up of the same elements; the same ones that built everything we see are also the ones that built us.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

To be fair King Canute never tried to stop the tides he was trying to prove he couldn’t control the elements unlike god.

Pedant!

;-D

 

[bluethrunthru]

Thick as fuck or liar? You chose .....

 

[meltonblue]

Other countries have a distinctly different relationship with the EU, but that relationship is not “available” to the UK, because we dared to listen to voters who didn’t want everything the EU was “offering.”

In short, we were given an “all or nothing” ultimatum. Even though it was clear many millions of voters want a relationship with the Continent, the EU has nixed anything less than “give us all the money and none of the autonomy or nothing!”

Like who? I genuinely don’t know what we’ve not got that others have. We got exactly what we chose to have surely.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

To be fair King Canute never tried to stop the tides he was trying to prove he couldn’t control the elements unlike god.

Yeah but has god tried stopping the tide?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Pedant!

;-D

I was tempted.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Like who? I genuinely don’t know what we’ve not got that others have. We got exactly what we chose to have surely.

Several non-EU European countries have special trade agreements with the EU, primarily through the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).

The EFTA includes:
• Iceland
• Liechtenstein
• Norway

These countries participate in the European Economic Area (EEA), allowing them to access the EU’s single market while not being EU members.

Switzerland, although not in the EEA, has numerous bilateral agreements with the EU that facilitate trade and cooperation.

Other non-EU countries like Andorra and San Marino also have specific trade arrangements with the EU.

 

[inbetween]

Many SME that had reached their market limit within the UK had an easy market in which to expand if they so wished. they knew the standards to which they had to adhere and so it was easy to trade in the EU. That option has now significantly diminished with them either not bothering or actually setting up separate businesses in the EU, the proceeds of which remain in the EU rather than back here in the UK.

We harmonise because one set of rules satisfy the requirement in 27 other territories. There are another 185+ territories that may well have the same number of different rules to comply with.

No no no. Imposing regulatory standards whether harmonised or not and then assuming that this will create more business is total lunacy. Regulation is utterly irrelevant to this picture, more regulation in any form always increases costs and always reduces competitiveness. The EU is obsessed with protectionist, anti-competitive regulation and that's why just for a start there will never be an EU free trade deal with the UK. Fool on us, fool on them.

Ultimately the EU as an entity is happy providing that it retains market protectionism but I doubt that its citizens are happy. You're arguing for nothing more than to take advantage and join in with this protectionism. This however suits accountants and lawyers but it doesn't put food on the table. If it did then where is the growth and penny for the thoughts of anybody in the North whose manufacturing job was exported to cheaper shores.

If we want new growth, jobs and wealth then forget the rules, tear up the rules, give companies access to free capital and allow them to take risks. That is what the growing part of the world is doing because they have access to money and they also have regulatory freedom which gives rise to innovation and greater competitiveness. If the US moves to deregulate under Trump then the EU and UK are even more f*cked.

We're never going to see this type of innovation in Europe if we truly believe that a subset of rules set by random old farts in Brussels is the answer. It takes the EU YEARS to decide upon a rule and by that point China has already built entire new cities, factories and jobs. We can harmonise the rules but we can't let ourselves be defined by it but that has become the epitomy of the EU's existence and it's driving Europe into the ground.

China is the largest economic superpower ever to exist but China is not worrying about regulation, it's worrying about global competitive dominance. This is do or die and choosing to be uncompetitive and protect what's within is choosing to die. The EU has therefore actually already given up, it is closing down the shop and telling its citizens to get down into the bunker.

 

[Vic]

...

a political homogenization of different peoples with vastly different histories being shoehorned into Northern European political imperatives.

Sounds like the UK, except Ireland, Wales and Scotland were forced into the UK, whereas joining the EU was a choice.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Several non-EU European countries have special trade agreements with the EU, primarily through the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).

The EFTA includes:
• Iceland
• Liechtenstein
• Norway

These countries participate in the European Economic Area (EEA), allowing them to access the EU’s single market while not being EU members.

Switzerland, although not in the EEA, has numerous bilateral agreements with the EU that facilitate trade and cooperation.

Other non-EU countries like Andorra and San Marino also have specific trade arrangements with the EU.

View attachment 141792

EFTA was setup as an alternative to the EU.
The UK was a founding member, we then left EFTA to join the EEC because EFTA failed to achieve its strategic aims from the point of the UK.

It was never going to be a viable alternative.


It is the equivalent of cancelling Netflix and Disney plus and going back to betamax.

What seems to have been lost from these pages is that Brexit was meant to be the catalyst for a new age or neo mercantilism, the EU was meant to implode, member states were going to break off and the UK would have the competitive advantage of being ahead of the game.

Farage et al bragged this was going to happen. But it didn't.