PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

City are 100% guilty.

I've seen most of the evidence, it's not confidential.

To most interested observers, legal or otherwise, they will concede to the evidence in plain sight.

City have or will admit their guilt.
 
Personally I dunt see a difference in the way uefa manage their football politics and how the PL do. UEFA managed to smear our name with scant evidence. I personally think the PL learnt from that .


I also wonder if the PL are aware of how this case (if they don't manage to secure a victory) is bringing a superleague forward. I am sure they must be aware they are possibly shooting themselves in the foot.
 
As i have stated in the past, i thoroughly believe that if the pl were confident of landing any of the serious charges then they wouldnt have added the window dressing of the lesser none co-operation charges and nor would they have done it over multiple seasons.

3 charges doesnt play well in the press but 115 charges makes good headlines and talking points and makes it look like the pl are doing a thorough job instead of a load of window dressing, if they were confident of the main charges there would be no merit in the mud slinging lesser charges IMO
 
I’m suggesting that the level of evidence provided was sufficient with the level of evidence that the premier league had of wrongdoing.

Going ahead with a hugely expensive disciplinary process that was further complicated with an extraordinary amount of charges, wrongly communicated & leaked to bad faith actors shows that the process had not been thought through, certainly not with a commercial view.

So I don’t think it being a hugely expensive disciplinary process adds weight to the argument anymore than “115….. must be guilty of something!”

I know you’ve analysed it & I love the points raised by you & the solicitors but I think there at times is a little too much respect that they were;

i. Acting in good faith
ii. Competent

Not long now.
It seems to me that they spent 4 years hoping for it to go away after the CAS result proved we hadn't circumvented ffp & the threat of an independent regulator forced them to look as though they can regulate themselves with huge pressure from the cartel clubs, similar to Uefa, they have thrown non-cooperation to tar us as guilty. If this was one of the cartel clubs it would never have gotten this far. It's telling with how the FA & EPL weren't willing to investigate Lfc hacking scandal because it was historical but not as historical as 2009
 
As I've posted before, for the first time in March 2023, I've always felt there's a fundamental dichotomy here. IMO, City's confidence about having irrefutable evidence and the entirely reasonable assumption that the PL wouldn't have accused the club in this way without being confident of having a strong case are mutually exclusive.

One or two people have posted with hypotheses as to how both propositions could co-exist, but there's nothing I find at all convincing (others, might, I suppose). Anyway, my view on what we can reasonably infer at this stage is as follows.
  1. Once the emails were published, the PL had an obligation to investigate, as the published emails are sufficient to raise the issue of potential wrongdoing, albeit that they aren't close to being conclusive evidence of it.
  2. Given the PL's wider investigatory powers, it was entitled not to satisfy itself with the CAS appeal determination with regard to the results of the UEFA proceedings, especially as new emails appeared thereafter.
  3. The PL's investigatory powers should have been exercised with respect to matters of legitimate interest based on the information it had about MCFC, rather than a so-called fishing expedition with a wider scope aimed at finding any wrongdoing (including concerning matters not previously alleged or suspected) on the club's part.
  4. The PL and City did have High Court hearings aimed at settling areas of dispute with regard to the investigation, so one presumes that the investigation was ultimately carried out in a way the court was satisfied with and we needn't have concerns about the scenario.
  5. The PL has clearly put great effort into winning this case, given the time the investigation took, the length of the eventual hearing before the Panel, the eminence and specialisms of the lawyers representing the PL before the Panel, and the vast cost of the entire exercise, running into tens of millions.
  6. One wouldn't ordinarily expect an authority in the PL's permission to pursue a process that would result in a hearing before a Panel such as this one by making a series of accusations that it doesn't believe it has a reasonable chance of substantiating.
Even in the light of all that, I see only two possible options: either City are correct in the club's assertion to the effect that we will be able to demonstrate its innocence of all major charges, while the PL has pursued a process based on accusations it isn't likely to be able to substantiate to the required standard of proof; or the PL has pursued a process based on accusations it has at least a reasonable prospect of substantiating, and City's confidence as stated above is misplaced.

I know where I'd place my money. The PL has faced a difficult task to meet the necessary standard of proof with regard to the matters it needs to prove, and it's not easy to see where that evidence will come from or how the PL could realistically have procured the evidence they need. In addition, what we've called on here the 'soft signals' all point in one way, which offers a degree of comfort to us even though it's only a limited one.

That said, although I haven't really been in practice as a lawyer for a while, my previous training and professional experience has made me cautious. As a result, I'm certainly not going to give a definitive opinion on evidence I haven't seen that's outside the public domain. The case, as ever, turns on the evidence and no one on here can yet know for sure where it points.

Yes - I'm certainly not approaching it from a purely legal perspective and nor is my experience purely legal. Litigation, disputes and investigations necessitate lots of stepping back from the legals and looking at the commercials/political. It is a nuanced bundle of factors that both lead to cases being launched and not settled.

The real dichotomy is the weight one gives to conspiracy theory (on both sides). I happen to think almost all of it is total nonsense and whenever you want to look for conspiracy, just assume either it isn't there or it is mere incompetence. Anyway, back to listening to Candace Owens explaining how Jews all got a text message about 9/11

Conspiracy or competence?

Let’s remember the Premier League are currently appealing Leicesters appeal.
 
Always thought this was a free hit for the cartel. PL win & MCFC will be shackled, PL lose & it is a dead man walking. Welcome to the SuperLeague mk 2
 
It's not so much that, IMO. I'd say that non-lawyers are just less comfortable expressing themselves in fairly categorical terms. You've written, "I think it most likely the PL ... don't have a chance of landing the most serious charges." Now, "most likely" does qualify your statement a bit but you're still sounding very confident.

I take the point made yesterday by @gordondaviesmoustache that not all lawyers are inherently cautious. However, a lot of us spend our time trying to caveat everything for a living and it comes across in many lawyers' assessments on here.

Yes, I understand that and I, of course, can respect the use of caution on this matter. You do make sounding very confident seem like a bad thing, though :)

The reason I sound very confident is that I am very confident and (among many others) for the reasons you set out in your post a while back.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what I think, we will see soon enough.
 
It seems to me that they spent 4 years hoping for it to go away after the CAS result proved we hadn't circumvented ffp & the threat of an independent regulator forced them to look as though they can regulate themselves with huge pressure from the cartel clubs, similar to Uefa, they have thrown non-cooperation to tar us as guilty. If this was one of the cartel clubs it would never have gotten this far. It's telling with how the FA & EPL weren't willing to investigate Lfc hacking scandal because it was historical but not as historical as 2009

I don’t think it was the regulator, I don’t think announcing 115 charges after 4 years incorrectly was a way of telling the government the games safe.
 
The Premier League Annual Report was published this week. What reference was made to legal costs and the City case?
 
I'll be honest with you - the emails that were published after CAS taken in isolation looked quite serious. Its then upto us to answer the questions. I haven't paid massive interest into the details of the case and the emails etc, mainly taken a view that there is a witch hunt and we are not guilty and as we are getting closer started to get nervous, hence looked up the emails etc

Magic Hat is a bad-faith actor who demonstrably lacks skills in terms of processing and evaluating legal evidence and is seeking to portray the emails as conclusive proof. If they really were some kind of 'smoking gun', as he/she maintains, you wouldn't have had stellar rosters of lawyers, including some of the country's top silks, participating in a hearing such as this before three extraordinarily eminent figures for three months at a cost of tens of millions.

I haven't actually looked at the emails for a long time, but I've read all of them (pre- and post-CAS) that have ever been released. Clearly, they didn't make City look good and one thing I was actually struck by was that some of the asides looked highly unprofessional, not least the crack about "one down and six to go" or whatever it was. And I also reckoned that the one posted on here the other day in which Simon Cliff spoke about "taking down" the global PwC organisation in response to advice the firm gave UEFA sounded a bit crass, IMO.

But do they actually show MCFC to be guilty of serious wrongdoing covered by accusations made by the PL? Remember these things about emails. First, what are claimed to be apparent references to unlawful acts may be, in fact, discussions of how to perfectly legally circumvent laws or regulations to achieve a business objective in the manner in which legitimate businesses across the globe seek to do each day. Second, in any event, the fact a course of action was referred to in an email isn't conclusive evidence that it happened.

In the CAS hearing, to refute the contents of the emails adduced during those proceedings, part of the evidence City put forward consisted of the club's own accounting records and that of sponsors, as well as direct witness testimony. It would be extremely difficult for the PL to persuade the Panel that it needs to dismiss as evidence the accounting records of City and its sponsors, rejecting the views of their auditors at the same time, together with the personal testimony of distinguished, successful and experienced businessmen. They'd all have to be in on it.

Remember what City said before the CAS: “These very serious allegations necessarily involve a conspiracy on the part of MCFC, its shareholder, and these two sponsors [Etihad and Etisalat]. Large numbers of executives not just within MCFC but also those sponsors and the respective auditors would have to be complicit in order to facilitate such a scheme. Whatever Magic Hat says, that's all highly dubious unless the subsequent Award tells us otherwise.

'
 
Yes, I understand that and I, of course, can respect the use of caution on this matter. You do make sounding very confident seem like a bad thing, though :)

The reason I sound very confident is that I am very confident and (among many others) for the reasons you set out in your post a while back.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what I think, we will see soon enough.

And presumably for the reasons I've set out in the post I've just made. Sounding confident isn't a bad thing in the slightest, so sorry if I gave that impression.

It's not for me, though. I won't lie - part of the reason is that, when you're a lawyer and it doesn't go the way your best assessment suggested it might, people can get arsey with you. I'm leaving plenty I can point back to, mainly as a precaution. :)
 
And presumably for the reasons I've set out in the post I've just made. Sounding confident isn't a bad thing in the slightest, so sorry if I gave that impression.

It's not for me, though. I won't lie - part of the reason is that, when you're a lawyer and it doesn't go the way your best assessment suggested it might, people can get arsey with you. I'm leaving plenty I can point back to, mainly as a precaution. :)
Can you get CPD points in CYA?
 
And presumably for the reasons I've set out in the post I've just made. Sounding confident isn't a bad thing in the slightest, so sorry if I gave that impression.

It's not for me, though. I won't lie - part of the reason is that, when you're a lawyer and it doesn't go the way your best assessment suggested it might, people can get arsey with you. I'm leaving plenty I can point back to, mainly as a precaution. :)

Got it. Lawyers are wussies :)
 

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