Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Blue Maverick]

Now that is a good question. I suspect I would have said 'fuck you' and supported any and all efforts to defeat the enemy. I have two lads of fighting age and I'm sure they would be prepared to fight and die to defend this country if push ever came to shove. How would I feel 3 years down the line when my lads came home in body bags and the war looks as though it's going badly?

So I understand why people feel so strongly that Ukraine should be supported. This is why I don't post regularly in this thread, because I don't want to come across as lacking in empathy for the situation the Ukrainians find themselves in. I was wrong about Russia quickly overpowering Ukraine, but I wasn't wrong about this war being a disaster for Ukraine. I just feel the pragmatic course of action is to stop the carnage, keep your youngsters alive, sign a peace treaty, and live to fight another day.

And they will have to fight another day because that **** in Moscow will rebuild and do it again.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I just feel the pragmatic course of action is to stop the carnage, keep your youngsters alive, sign a peace treaty, and live to fight another day.

This option is, unfortunately, not actually available at the moment, and has never been available. Surrender or fight are the options.

Of course, a negotiating genius may come along, or facts on the ground may change, but pretending some easy negotiation is available for peace is wishful thinking.

Recall that Russia has stated that Ukraine is not a real country, should not exist, has invaded twice and repeatedly broken prior agreements.

All just IMO.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Starmer and Badenoch both very poor.

Starmer misses the significance of the moment completely by trying to solve the need for a huge increase in defence spending by shuffling some deckchairs around (and cutting a part of govt that improves global stability)

Badenoch tries to make it partisan when they actually agree, without offering any substantial critique.

Woeful.

 

[mrcunny]

3rd, have you not seen Hamilton? :)

I will have a peep...;-)

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Starmer and Badenoch both very poor.

Starmer misses the significance of the moment completely by trying to solve the need for a huge increase in defence spending by shuffling some deckchairs around (and cutting a part of govt that improves global stability)

Badenoch tries to make it partisan when they actually agree, without offering any substantial critique.

Woeful.

It's not enough is it?

Also Radio 4 were immediately questioning his numbers, they were saying £13.6b additional annual spend on defence equates to the entire ODA budget and not a cut of 0.2 m. Wonder who is right?

 

[roubaixtuesday]

It's not enough is it?

Also Radio 4 were immediately questioning his numbers, they were saying £13.6b additional annual spend on defence equates to the entire ODA budget and not a cut of 0.2 m. Wonder who is right?

No idea. It's hopelessly inadequate to the circumstances regardless.

 

[St.Pauli support]

Asking where all the money should come from to finance our security, critical infrastructure or other urgent topics,
I always wonder why nobody ever talks about constantly rising wealth of private households...

While state debt are rising year by year, private households become richer. That's a constant flow of cash. Not for everyone, of course!

In Germany, private financial assets (w/o housing!) amounts to
EUR 9,000 bn.
So there is a lot of dead money lying around somewhere...

Similar number for UK might be GBP 11,000 bn.
For USA something like USD 135,000 bn.

Never in a public debate I hear those numbers. Never.

 

[fulabeer]

No NATO, territorial concessions regarding the donbas.

You seriously think that would have been enough?
You are dreaming or incredibly naive.
The plan from day one was the whole of the Ukraine. That day one was in 2014.

 

[mosssideblue]

Now that is a good question. I suspect I would have said 'fuck you' and supported any and all efforts to defeat the enemy. I have two lads of fighting age and I'm sure they would be prepared to fight and die to defend this country if push ever came to shove. How would I feel 3 years down the line when my lads came home in body bags and the war looks as though it's going badly?

So I understand why people feel so strongly that Ukraine should be supported. This is why I don't post regularly in this thread, because I don't want to come across as lacking in empathy for the situation the Ukrainians find themselves in. I was wrong about Russia quickly overpowering Ukraine, but I wasn't wrong about this war being a disaster for Ukraine. I just feel the pragmatic course of action is to stop the carnage, keep your youngsters alive, sign a peace treaty, and live to fight another day.

Edit. I don’t mean fight literally.

And what would you suggest would be in this peace treaty for Ukraine, and do youhonestly believe Putin would honour it?

 

[city2]

So talking about a ceasefire yet the Russians are still blowing up Ukraine killing even more people if they were serious why can’t they stop with the atrocities.

 

[lee_wsm]

So talking about a ceasefire yet the Russians are still blowing up Ukraine killing even more people if they were serious why can’t they stop with the atrocities.

Answered your own question they are not serious

 

[inbetween]

Now that is a good question. I suspect I would have said 'fuck you' and supported any and all efforts to defeat the enemy. I have two lads of fighting age and I'm sure they would be prepared to fight and die to defend this country if push ever came to shove. How would I feel 3 years down the line when my lads came home in body bags and the war looks as though it's going badly?

So I understand why people feel so strongly that Ukraine should be supported. This is why I don't post regularly in this thread, because I don't want to come across as lacking in empathy for the situation the Ukrainians find themselves in. I was wrong about Russia quickly overpowering Ukraine, but I wasn't wrong about this war being a disaster for Ukraine. I just feel the pragmatic course of action is to stop the carnage, keep your youngsters alive, sign a peace treaty, and live to fight another day.

Edit. I don’t mean fight literally.

Excellent post and finally it's great to read a post from a fellow human being.

As much as I feel for Ukraine I do not want to send my children to war. If Ukraine has to lose a bit of territory for that to happen then unfortunately in my opinion they will have to sign on the dotted line for the sake of everyone else.

What many on here do not understand is that Russia is a nuclear armed power with an army bigger than ours who also has many friends capable of sustaining it. We're not fighting the Taliban, ISIS or Al-Qaeda in caves anymore.

Any war of this scale would be unimaginable in its scale of death so we shouldn't wish for it under any circumstances.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

it's great to read a post from a fellow human being.

Dagnabbit my Vulcan mask has slipped.

[seriously, dehumanising people who disagree with you isn't a great way to go. Indeed, it's full Trump]

 

[cityontheup]

Excellent post and finally it's great to read a post from a fellow human being.

As much as I feel for Ukraine I do not want to send my children to war. If Ukraine has to lose a bit of territory for that to happen then unfortunately in my opinion they will have to sign on the dotted line for the sake of everyone else.

What many on here do not understand is that Russia is a nuclear armed power with an army bigger than ours who also has many friends capable of sustaining it. We're not fighting the Taliban, ISIS or Al-Qaeda in caves anymore.

Any war of this scale would be unimaginable in its scale of death so we shouldn't wish for it under any circumstances.

It’s a good job cowards like you weren’t about in 1939

 

[inbetween]

It’s a good job cowards like you weren’t about in 1939

Did Nazi Germany possess nuclear weapons? Would you risk total nuclear obliteration of you, your family and everybody that you know for the sake of Ukraine?

I don't think I need to say anymore because the date is not 1939 and the world changed a very long time ago.

Nuclear weapons assured that war between two nuclear states is unimaginable and here are people advocating for something that risks just that? I'm sorry but that is crazy.

 

[BobKowalski]

‘Excellent post and finally it's great to read a post from a fellow human being’

Greetings from the planet Zerg to all my fellow non-humans…

 

[inbetween]

Dagnabbit my Vulcan mask has slipped.

[seriously, dehumanising people who disagree with you isn't a great way to go. Indeed, it's full Trump]

I think an NBC mask might be more appropriate. :)

 

[cityontheup]

Did Nazi Germany possess nuclear weapons? Would you risk total nuclear obliteration of you, your family and everybody that you know for the sake of Ukraine?

I don't think I need to say anymore because the date is not 1939 and the world changed a very long time ago.

Nuclear weapons assured that war between two nuclear states is unimaginable and here are people advocating for something that risks just that? I'm sorry but that is crazy.

So we should just roll over and turn our backs on Ukraine ? Then what do we do when he keeps moving west ?

 

[inbetween]

So we should just roll over and turn our backs on Ukraine ? Then what do we do when he keeps moving west ?

If he keeps moving west (why would he?) then we defend ourselves plain and simple, we have nuclear weapons ourselves for that defence too. Ironically a number on here would have rid us of nuclear weapons only 5-6 years ago which is funny. I'm completely in favour of increased defence spending for this reason.

Ukraine does not form part of what constitutes something that we should defend because Ukraine is not in NATO and technically not in the European/EU sphere. That's why we don't already have boots on the ground now. Defending it therefore becomes problematic and also any action we do take would be taken as total war with Russia.

We can obviously keep giving Ukraine money and keep supporting them with equipment but how/when does that story end? Does it continue forever? That's fine I guess, it's great for the arms industry but I can't see how it's anything other than an ongoing death sentence for Ukrainians.

 

[mosssideblue]

If he keeps moving west (why would he?) then we defend ourselves plain and simple, we have nuclear weapons ourselves for that defence too. Ironically a number on here would have rid us of nuclear weapons only 5-6 years ago which is funny. I'm completely in favour of increased defence spending for this reason.

Ukraine does not form part of what constitutes something that we should defend because Ukraine is not in NATO and technically not in the European/EU sphere. That's why we don't already have boots on the ground now. Defending it therefore becomes problematic and also any action we do take would be taken as total war with Russia.

We can obviously keep giving Ukraine money and keep supporting them with equipment but how/when does that story end? Does it continue forever? That's fine I guess, it's great for the arms industry but I can't see how it's anything other than an ongoing death sentence for Ukrainians.

Your asking why would he. He is pissed that the USSR broke up and wants to reestablish it. What would be your suggestion if he went for one of the minor NATO countries on his doorstep?