11 | Jeremy Doku - 2024/25

[LordG]

The problem is potential, when do we stop claiming potential and either change the system or the player? Looks great but a bit meh in the end product.

It’s sink or swim for him next season, if hes still average he’s needs getting rid of, there will be no excuses left for him.

 

[lasereyes]

Irrelevant stat when those dribbles fizzle to nothing.

He doesn't have the nous to make it at the very top.

Assists and Expected Assists in mid 90 percentile says otherwise

 

[BlueMonkey79]

Assists and Expected Assists in mid 90 percentile says otherwise

How can a winger/forward that has played 75 games and only has 18 Assists be in the 90 per cent bracket?

Only has 8 goals as well.

He will never ever get to the Raz, Mahrez and Sane heights.

 

[oldius]

We've got two absolutely world class players; Haaland and Rodri

After that, we've got Ederson (leaving), Dias, Gvardiol, and Marmouch who have more or less lived up to expectations this season. Grealish has shown that he can operate in a central position, but hasn't been given enough opportunity by Pep to prove it. He's never been a £100m player imo and will be moved on in the summer.

The rest have been a mixture of past it at top level, injury prone, burned out, too raw, or out of their depth. I think we all know pretty well which players fall into each category.

Personally, I think we need at least ten more top quality signings in this 'rebuild'. That's at least 2 or 3 transfer windows. If we miss out on CL next season, we've got big problems attracting top players.

As I've said many times on here, the 'clear out' and 'rebuild' should have started the day after we won the CL.

So, this season, five in the entire squad who are performing (I don't disagree).
Against that backdrop, my point is that the negativity directed towards yong players (Doku, Sav, Lewis et al.) is misplaced, and premature. That is my only point.

Let's judge these players in a season not ravaged by injury, Illness, and Father Time, when we are functioning properly as a cohesive unit.

 

[oldius]

How can a winger/forward that has played 75 games and only has 18 Assists be in the 90 per cent bracket?

Only has 8 goals as well.

He will never ever get to the Raz, Mahrez and Sane heights.

Stats are per minute played, which is the only fair judgement.

 

[B\connellblue]

Those numbers surprise me. And don't add up with the frustration of watching him with my own eyes.

As I said, I've my views on him at this point. Hope he has some development in him to be an asset for us going forward.

Go with what your eyes tell you, stats for the most part are misleading. Who decides what's a "chance created" or an assist ? Very much depends on who the ball ends up with and how good a finisher they are. A complete balls up can end up as an assist if the receiver scores a worldly from it. It's high time Txiki "and his replacement" had a look at a wingers record of goals scored before throwing away £50million on them. We have a team full of non scorers at the moment, that has to change.

 

[oldius]

Go with what your eyes tell you, stats for the most part are misleading. Who decides what's a "chance created" or an assist ? Very much depends on who the ball ends up with and how good a finisher they are. A complete balls up can end up as an assist if the receiver scores a worldly from it. It's high time Txiki "and his replacement" had a look at a wingers record of goals scored before throwing away £50million on them. We have a team full of non scorers at the moment, that has to change.

IMO this is because the whole team is not functioning fully. We are slow and ponderous and allow opposition defences to get set, often in two banks of five. Any team's attackers would find that hard to score against.

 

[Columbia]

The amount of stick this guy gets is disproportionate. He’s playing in the oldest, slowest squad in the premier league. All our players have been shocking this season. The manager and club are devoid of ideas and even prime sterling and sane would struggle in this ponderous team.

 

[goatfeeder100]

IMO this is because the whole team is not functioning fully. We are slow and ponderous and allow opposition defences to get set, often in two banks of five. Any team's attackers would find that hard to score against.

2nd top scorers in the league so we're not that bad going forward. I'd agree to an extent there's a dysfunction across the whole team thats maybe affecting the individual productivity of certain players. I made that argument for Foden in his thread, granted he has a lot more credit in the bank coming off a player of the year season last year.
Doku himself does enable defenses to get set because he wants to slow his man down before using that electric burst he has to beat a man, by which time the box is already crowded so someone like Haaland is harder to find.
Is it a similar story on the other flank with Savinho? Or on the occasions when we for some reason stick Bernardo out there again when he can't beat a man? Maybe.
I'd agree that the issues we have with Doku in the side aren't all down to Doku himself. There are plenty of issues throughout the side that need fixing. I think the issues are more on the defensive side of things though personally and our inability to control midfield without Rodri. We have been hit and miss going forward but it's not like the goals have completely dried up.

 

[FromPollockToSilva]

You can say the same about Doku, and the rest of his game is better than Savinho's game outside of shooting. What exactly is Savinho better at than Doku?

Passing. Crossing. Off-the-ball movement. Keeping hold of the ball (he is both dispossessed and loses the ball to a bad touch less often than Doku)

 

[madloaf]

2nd top scorers in the league so we're not that bad going forward. I'd agree to an extent there's a dysfunction across the whole team thats maybe affecting the individual productivity of certain players. I made that argument for Foden in his thread, granted he has a lot more credit in the bank coming off a player of the year season last year.
Doku himself does enable defenses to get set because he wants to slow his man down before using that electric burst he has to beat a man, by which time the box is already crowded so someone like Haaland is harder to find.
Is it a similar story on the other flank with Savinho? Or on the occasions when we for some reason stick Bernardo out there again when he can't beat a man? Maybe.
I'd agree that the issues we have with Doku in the side aren't all down to Doku himself. There are plenty of issues throughout the side that need fixing. I think the issues are more on the defensive side of things though personally and our inability to control midfield without Rodri. We have been hit and miss going forward but it's not like the goals have completely dried up.

We had a great start to the season results/goals wise and definitely agreed with Rodri to an extent.

12th match onwards the goals haven't dried up but considering it's half a season of data it's probably enough to be a reflection of what we've become and that is a team that is 7th top scorers behind Liverpool, arsenal, forest, Newcastle, bournemouth and level with spurs.

We have the best striker in the world. We shouldnt be 7th. The supporting cast have to shoulder the blame.

 

[hilts]

So, this season, five in the entire squad who are performing (I don't disagree).
Against that backdrop, my point is that the negativity directed towards yong players (Doku, Sav, Lewis et al.) is misplaced, and premature. That is my only point.

Let's judge these players in a season not ravaged by injury, Illness, and Father Time, when we are functioning properly as a cohesive unit.

I understand your point to a certain degree but there is one glaring problem with this, these are player performance threads specifically designed to discuss individual players. With that in mind how long do you keep them closed for? The first season a player arrives? The second we can discuss unless we don't have injuries?

Maybe everyone should just type let's see over and over again. Doku has been here a while I don't see why talking about Doku on a Doku thread is a taboo subject.

The problem arises when people have made their mind up and have no balance to their views. We have had very high standards with great players and unprecedented success, for a while this is the comparison that new players will be judged against.

Unfortunately for players there are certain expectations you cannot hide from if you join one of the most currently successful clubs in the world.

It is to all our advantages if players like Doku, Sav, Nico and Marmoush end up very good because we can't buy a whole new squad in the summer.

 

[oldius]

I understand your point to a certain degree but there is one glaring problem with this, these are player performance threads specifically designed to discuss individual players. With that in mind how long do you keep them closed for? The first season a player arrives? The second we can discuss unless we don't have injuries?

Maybe everyone should just type let's see over and over again. Doku has been here a while I don't see why talking about Doku on a Doku thread is a taboo subject.

The problem arises when people have made their mind up and have no balance to their views. We have had very high standards with great players and unprecedented success, for a while this is the comparison that new players will be judged against.

Unfortunately for players there are certain expectations you cannot hide from if you join one of the most currently successful clubs in the world.

It is to all our advantages if players like Doku, Sav, Nico and Marmoush end up very good because we can't buy a whole new squad in the summer.

I have no problem with balanced discussion.

I made a point that I considered him a huge prospect. I was asked why. I offered that he repeatedly creates chances against the best teams, either by his own work or by forcing teams to double mark him so that others are released. A poster said they would love the stats to back that up. I provided them, and they showed that, per minute, he was in the top 5% for assists and the 99th percentile for dribbles. Someone said that stats are useless and someone else said ignore them and trust your eyes. There is no balance to those discussions. They consist of fans with a particular view who then ignore all evidence because they have made up their minds. This, IMO, spoils a number of the player performance threads because of the negativity directed towards specific individuals in a season where the vast majority of the team have not performed.

 

[hilts]

I have no problem with balanced discussion.

I made a point that I considered him a huge prospect. I was asked why. I offered that he repeatedly creates chances against the best teams, either by his own work or by forcing teams to double mark him so that others are released. A poster said they would love the stats to back that up. I provided them, and they showed that, per minute, he was in the top 5% for assists and the 99th percentile for dribbles. Someone said that stats are useless and someone else said ignore them and trust your eyes. There is no balance to those discussions. They consist of fans with a particular view who then ignore all evidence because they have made up their minds. This, IMO, spoils a number of the player performance threads because of the negativity directed towards specific individuals in a season where the vast majority of the team have not performed.

If I'm being honest, and I am:-), I'm also not much if a stat guy. There is more to a player than his stats and you are obviously also somewhat in the hands of your team mates.

The fact he's not an automatic choice in Pep's eyes and frustrates a lot of supporters is a current fact. He's a good dribbler. His end product and work rate going back needs to improve. Too many times there isn't an option of a pass in the box but he puts it in anyhow, he needs to get his head up and go high with a cross or lay it back more often.

The lad has something but currently it's not enough to be in a very good team regularly and currently we are not even a very good team.

Fingers crossed.

 

[King Jay]

His weakness is that he basically never attacks the goal.

 

[oldius]

The fact he's not an automatic choice in Pep's eyes and frustrates a lot of supporters is a current fact. He's a good dribbler. His end product and work rate going back needs to improve. Too many times there isn't an option of a pass in the box but he puts it in anyhow, he needs to get his head up and go high with a cross or lay it back more often.

An absolutely balanced view that I agree with.
At 22, he is a real prospect, but of course he needs to improve.

 

[goatfeeder100]

I have no problem with balanced discussion.

I made a point that I considered him a huge prospect. I was asked why. I offered that he repeatedly creates chances against the best teams, either by his own work or by forcing teams to double mark him so that others are released. A poster said they would love the stats to back that up. I provided them, and they showed that, per minute, he was in the top 5% for assists and the 99th percentile for dribbles. Someone said that stats are useless and someone else said ignore them and trust your eyes. There is no balance to those discussions. They consist of fans with a particular view who then ignore all evidence because they have made up their minds. This, IMO, spoils a number of the player performance threads because of the negativity directed towards specific individuals in a season where the vast majority of the team have not performed.

I'm glad you provided the stats and I certainly never said they were useless but they don't completely debunk someone's view who maybe doesn't rate him. They do provide some balance to what I for one see with Doku. My eyes tell me one thing. The stats show he's perhaps a little more effective than I maybe gave him credit for.
I've not purposely been negative towards him for no reason. Watching him I find him very frustrating to watch because he has some electric attributes and some really irritating flaws and he needs a lot of refinement to become what I perceive to be a City/Pep winger.
I'm happy to give him time to improve and be more consistent because there are issues across the whole squad that have to be addressed. I'd love nothing more than to see Doku and everyone else in this squad be part of a successful City side. Just for me the jury is very much out on whether he's someone we can move forward with or whether he would just be best suited elsewhere where there's maybe less focus on system and more freedom to express his mercurial self.

 

[oldius]

I'm glad you provided the stats and I certainly never said they were useless but they don't completely debunk someone's view who maybe doesn't rate him. They do provide some balance to what I for one see with Doku. My eyes tell me one thing. The stats show he's perhaps a little more effective than I maybe gave him credit for.
I've not purposely been negative towards him for no reason. Watching him I find him very frustrating to watch because he has some electric attributes and some really irritating flaws and he needs a lot of refinement to become what I perceive to be a City/Pep winger.
I'm happy to give him time to improve and be more consistent because there are issues across the whole squad that have to be addressed. I'd love nothing more than to see Doku and everyone else in this squad be part of a successful City side. Just for me the jury is very much out on whether he's someone we can move forward with or whether he would just be best suited elsewhere where there's maybe less focus on system and more freedom to express his mercurial self.

A fair and balanced post.
Wingers can be frustrating, but they operate only successfully as part of a cohesive attacking unit. Doku is often doing his job as a winger but has few clear opportunities to hit attackers in the box because they are surrounded by defenders, as teams often sit pathetically deep. In addition, he needs to improve his decision making and final ball. If all come together, he will be world class and the stats will back it up.

 

[WallyA]

Where are people getting their stats?

In thw premier league, because the cups can massively skew players quality here are our attackers creative numbers per 90

Marmoush
0.14xA but 0.73 goals for 0.46xG, so makes up for it as he is primarily a goal scorer.

Foden
0.27xA which is good but not elite that we want from him, and has 0.37 goals for 0.27xG, so he gets goals.

These are actually decent numbers, but for Foden he can and has dome better.

Savinho
0.32xA is elite (96th percentile), but has 0.06 goals dor 0.26xG so shit finisher.

Doku
0.22 xA is okay (78th percentile) for other teams, but needs to be better for City. But he also has 0.21 goals for 0.07 xG indicating he is a good finisher with extremely limited chances to get good opportunities.

I suspect as a "creator" Doku will leave us wanting more, especially as Bobb carries in stride he may find it more difficult to become a starter as I think Marmoush will primarily be a LW, Savinho can play LW, while Bobb can play RW.

But this also shows me the natural pathway to go next season, I think if Doku played more like Marmoush (or if we set him up that way), wherein we always have the LW drift centrally to be more of a goal scorer, then Doku may have a better future here rotating with Marmoush or play with him when Marmoush rotates as a striker.

Then the RW primarily stays as a creative force, this is what Barca does with Raphinha LW and Yamal RW.

But if Pep plays him LW and just says stay wide and be a creative player, I have doubts he can have a future here doing that.

 

[King Jay]

I am not worried about him and Savinho. They will most likely play better next season in a better functioning team. Especially when we have a better midfield and most likely helping fullbacks who are actually fullbacks. Our wingers can only do so much. Of course their goal output isn’t good but I think with the help of overlapping fullbacks they will have more opportunity to go 1vs1 instead of 1vs2 and will have more opportunities to score goals . Doku also needs to work on his left foot regardless . he is a winger and does his job well but we barely flood the oppositions goal area anymore so it’s harder to get assists.

Seriously got no worries about him and sav. They will do their jobs next season.