Russian invasion of Ukraine

Just listened to what the BBC had to say and there was no mention of any details, no mention that this was a Russian proposal not a peace plan, no mention that Ukraine was being asked to give Russia territory that it doesn't control, no mention of the last time Ukraine signed an agreement with Russia backed by America and gave up its nukes. Disgraceful coverage.

All the BBC were interested in reporting was Trump and how spoke to Zelensky, as if Trump being a prick was 'news,. It really is just a story, no effort to explain or educate.

Not fit for purpose. Defund them now - get rid of the license fee.
 
I'm not sure whether Europe has thrown Ukraine under the Trump bus or whether it's been agreed with Ukraine.

A peace plan that goes some way towards the Russian one But with key differences that do make it more palatable to Ukraine...

The European plan:

1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.

2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and Nato. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.

[Point three of the US proposal has been removed, which said: 'There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and Nato will not expand further'].

4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and Nato will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.

5. Ukraine will receive robust security guarantees.

6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.

7. Ukraine joining Nato depends on consensus of Nato members, which does not exist.

8. Nato agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.

9. Nato fighter jets will be stationed in Poland.

10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5.

a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee;

b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee;

c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn;

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated.

12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:

a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high-growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts;

b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities;

c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas;

d. Infrastructure development;

e. Mineral and natural resource extraction;

f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy.

a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis;

b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities;

c. Russia to be invited back into the G8.

14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.

15. A joint security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement.

16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine

17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start.

18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT.

19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.

20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

21. Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the line of contact.

22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation.

23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea.

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of all for all;

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children;

c. There will be a family reunification program;

d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict.

25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.

26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J Trump. There will be penalties for violation.

28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.
 
Stuff 23/11:
Trump/Russian plan goes FUBAR (Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition).


Wiktoff is an incompetent clown and going to war with Republican senetors will not end well for Trump.
 
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I'm not sure whether Europe has thrown Ukraine under the Trump bus or whether it's been agreed with Ukraine.

A peace plan that goes some way towards the Russian one But with key differences that do make it more palatable to Ukraine...

The European plan:
Not happy with 13.
 
'Outrage against human decency' – 47 European MPs warn Trump against appeasing Russia in new open letter...

"The statement follows on the heels of public outcry over the Trump administration's leaked 28-point peace plan, which many view as demanding Ukraine's capitulation to Russia after four years of brutal full-scale invasion by Russian forces.

"Any appeasement of Russia as the aggressor, any attempts at putting pressure on Ukraine as the victim of this aggression, is morally reprehensible and an outrage against human decency. To bow before Russia is to abandon shared values and plunge the free world into anarchy and chaos," the letter reads.

"Strong American leadership is the only hope. A cowed America can never be great again; a‌‌ cowed America can never be first."
....

Full article:
https://kyivindependent.com/outrage...-against-appeasing-russia-in-new-open-letter/
 
CBS has a weekly news show "60 Minutes." The most recent episode on Sunday evening included a report on "The Bus on Route 62" documenting a Russian missile attack last Easter that sent two missiles into the centre of the town of Sumy near the Russian border. One hit a packed bus and exploded, killing a dozen people and maiming many others. Street cameras recorded the shrapnel from the explosion flying across the street, one piece hitting a young woman standing on the sidewalk. She was a musician. She turned, walked a yard or so, then the CBS commentary adds "her next two steps are her last." She crumpled and fell, she bled out.
The Ukrainians are seeking to have this attack listed as a Russian war crime. Add it to the list. FUCK YOU, PUTIN.
 
'Outrage against human decency' – 47 European MPs warn Trump against appeasing Russia in new open letter...

"The statement follows on the heels of public outcry over the Trump administration's leaked 28-point peace plan, which many view as demanding Ukraine's capitulation to Russia after four years of brutal full-scale invasion by Russian forces.

"Any appeasement of Russia as the aggressor, any attempts at putting pressure on Ukraine as the victim of this aggression, is morally reprehensible and an outrage against human decency. To bow before Russia is to abandon shared values and plunge the free world into anarchy and chaos," the letter reads.

"Strong American leadership is the only hope. A cowed America can never be great again; a‌‌ cowed America can never be first."
....

Full article:
https://kyivindependent.com/outrage...-against-appeasing-russia-in-new-open-letter/
Trump’s response: ‘this war would never have happened if I was President.’
 
Just listened to what the BBC had to say and there was no mention of any details, no mention that this was a Russian proposal not a peace plan, no mention that Ukraine was being asked to give Russia territory that it doesn't control, no mention of the last time Ukraine signed an agreement with Russia backed by America and gave up its nukes. Disgraceful coverage.

All the BBC were interested in reporting was Trump and how spoke to Zelensky, as if Trump being a prick was 'news,. It really is just a story, no effort to explain or educate.

Not fit for purpose. Defund them now - get rid of the license fee.
Scrap the license fee and put one penny in the pound on tax if the government are serious about getting the country on track
 
U.S. official said that Trump hasn't
been as involved in the specifics, - WP

"You tell him, T'm going to try to get a deal.' He will say, 'Great, go see what you can do.' And that's the level of detail he has."

"It's been absolute chaos all day because even different parts of the White House don't know what's going on. It's embarrassing."

A European official said it seemed Washington was "almost taken by
surprise on the whole thing" on Friday.

"Usually when there's more to it,
it feels different.... Our feeling has been, D.C. has been taken by surprise
by Witkoff's actions," the official said.
 
I honestly don't see the point, as soon as they give this revised plan to Russia they won't accept it anyway so it's back to square one surely?

Yeah as much as I said the other day that Putin needs this to end, I think he's past the point of no return and is using this drive a wedge between Europe and the US.
Apparently russian media are pushing the idea of total victory.
 
I expect 'hyper-realistic Airsoft and Paintballing' events all over Ukraine to get around the 800,000 limit.

Nothing in the rules about Ukrainian civilians 'playing' at soldiers, is there...
 
Apparently russian media are pushing the idea of total victory.
Have they even stopped to think what that would look like? Their ossified minds are fixed to the anachronistic model of Soviet subjugation. ‘Victory’ would look like Afghanistan did for them, but on steroids. The means of military production in Ukraine would make an occupation a living hell and suck even more life out of a demographic in the Russian population that they simply cannot afford. The insurrection would be completely off the scale.

‘Total victory’ such a short-sighted and binary way of thinking.
 
I expect 'hyper-realistic Airsoft and Paintballing' events all over Ukraine to get around the 800,000 limit.

Nothing in the rules about Ukrainian civilians 'playing' at soldiers, is there...
The key to this restriction will be the definition of ‘peacetime’. Any build up of forces on or near the border with Ukraine should fall outside any such definition. As should any reservists.
 

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