US & Israel attack Iran

Cart before the horse. Your thinking is no different to those who believe criminals exist because people commit crime - i.e. reducing it to a single and circular cause.

Russia was in a mess after Soviet dissolution and the US + Europe, in a far more powerful position, were working with an effective blank canvas politically and economically. A Russia integrated into Europe would have far less reason to be a threat and far more to lose if they were.

Does it absolve Russia of blame for waging war against Ukraine? No. But the issue could've been avoided through better strategic calculation. The West had a once in a lifetime chance to influence Russia's external alignment and they blew it. Russia was not a threat post Soviet collapse, ergo NATO did not have a reason to exist past this very point.
Unlike NATO, Russia has a history of inveterate truculence towards its neighbouring nations and territories, and many of those nations were understandably cautious, even wary about that after having been freed from the Soviet shackles, and naturally sought to protect themselves from that aggression and dominance. No country entered NATO under duress, each did so as a defensive act, and with an abundance of prudence and caution in order to protect itself. Just as Sweden and Finland did in 2022.

Russia had several options about how to respond to that landscape at the turn of the century (which I’d say was a key inflection point) through the prism of much greater trading links with Europe than in Soviet times and yet it chose to enter into a conscious pattern of disruption evolving into sabotage and the naked aggression we see today. You clearly feel this pattern wasn’t inevitable, but history strongly suggests otherwise.

Is it possible that Russia would have taken a different path had the west handled things differently in the ‘90s? I have to concede ‘yes’ to that question, but given its history, innate superiority complex, inveterate paranoia, and tellingly, its manifest track record over the last 25 years, including disseminating radioactive material in English cities, I’d say the odds overwhelmingly point towards the policy of defensive caution being the correct one.

Your suggested approach involved taking an unwarranted and reckless risk, mine is founded in experience and caution, which strongly suggests yours is the simplistic one, not mine.

Like I said Russia are cunts, and the expanse of NATO is a natural reaction to that. And is there a particular time in Russian history you’d like to point to in order to refute that statement?
 
Trump is gonna get smashed in the mid terms. The only issue is the other side of the uni party is owned by the same characters, packs and countries. A great political awakening is happening as the partizan traditional media collapses. Its the same here. The traditional parties have had it as everybody knows they're owned by the same characters and countries as America. People have had enough. The Greens will do well here as they have been strong on the Genocide and Trump all along. Slightly different in the US as third parties are all but illegal. The big two even go as far as suing to keep alternatives off ballots. And if anyone comes up making the point about the capture of Government by other countries, they are swamped by funding from these super packs. But, Trump is going to lose really badly after his latest bit of genius.
 
Unlike NATO, Russia has a history of inveterate truculence towards its neighbouring nations and territories, and many of those nations were understandably cautious, even wary about that after having been freed from the Soviet shackles, and naturally sought to protect themselves from that aggression and dominance. No country entered NATO under duress, each did so as a defensive act, and with an abundance of prudence and caution in order to protect itself. Just as Sweden and Finland did in 2022.

Russia had several options about how to respond to that landscape at the turn of the century (which I’d say was a key inflection point) through the prism of much greater trading links with Europe than in Soviet times and yet it chose to enter into a conscious pattern of disruption evolving into sabotage and the naked aggression we see today. You clearly feel this pattern wasn’t inevitable, but history strongly suggests otherwise.

Is it possible that Russia would have taken a different path had the west handled things differently in the ‘90s? I have to concede ‘yes’ to that question, but given its history, innate superiority complex, inveterate paranoia, and tellingly, its manifest track record over the last 25 years, including disseminating radioactive material in English cities, I’d say the odds overwhelmingly point towards the policy of defensive caution being the correct one.

Your suggested approach involved taking an unwarranted and reckless risk, mine is founded in experience and caution, which strongly suggests yours is the simplistic one, not mine.

Like I said Russia are cunts, and the expanse of NATO is a natural reaction to that. And is there a particular time in Russian history you’d like to point to in order to refute that statement?

1. Let's go back to the fundamental reason why NATO exist here. It's not for European protection. It's for the maintenance of strategic American hegemony in Europe, under the guise of security protection. Even Trump knows this, because if he didn't, a request to withdraw would've been made in his first term.

If Europe wanted to collectively protect themselves from Russia they could, and would develop sufficient independent capability. The US doesn't keep its second largest foreign troop contingent in Germany because Germany cannot develop its own troops - it does so because that's the deal that came out of WW2 and European settlement. The only reason why Europe presently relies on the US to lead in Ukraine is because the US ensured Europe would be reliant on them.

Russia must be kept as a permanent threat to Europe by the US, real or fake, because it has to justify NATO's continued existence. It grew because the US have WANTED it to expand. Countries did not have to join under duress - the US knew if it worked towards obtaining a critical mass and kept the bogeyman alive in the rearview mirror, smaller states would feel no option but to join or risk because stranded alone on an island. This itself is a form of coercion.

2. Let's expand on your line of though. Should we have taken the same hawkish approach towards Germany post the Third Reich, after it took two world wars to settle the country's status?

If the US had isolated Germany and Japan in the same way that it has Russia post Soviet Union, with no discernible attempt to help integrate it regionally and globally, what would their posture be towards the US and the West?

----

Reverting to the original topic - the US now has the chance to open the gate and try and integrate Iran in the international community, instead of leaving it in a state of near permanent isolation. Carrot and stick, instead of just the stick.

Perhaps you may also consider this an 'unwarranted and reckless' risk, since plenty consider Iran a danger and cunts to boot; I consider it necessary diplomacy and global leadership. All sanctions have done to Iran is strengthen the IRGC's position and chokehold on power internally, leaving their middle class unable to grow and push for political change.

Does the US have it in them? I don't know. At this point, I doubt it. Their arrogance and fear of China are driving these global entanglements.
 
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tbf NATO should no longer exist, once the soviet union colapsed and the warsaw pact ended the EU should have been moving towards a european secutiy force alligned with the UN and gradually removing the US bases to be replaced by a continental army focussed on. fighting in defence of the region, not as a proxy for another nation, russia should have been invited to join. early doors to keep them involved and in check
 
tbf NATO should no longer exist, once the soviet union colapsed and the warsaw pact ended the EU should have been moving towards a european secutiy force alligned with the UN and gradually removing the US bases to be replaced by a continental army focussed on. fighting in defence of the region, not as a proxy for another nation, russia should have been invited to join. early doors to keep them involved and in check

How can you invite Russia into a EU wide defence agreement when the primary thing defence is needed from is...Russia? The 90's was probably when NATO was needed most because it allowed the former USSR states to get up and running without risk of being invaded.
 
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Let's go back to the fundamental reason why NATO exist here. It's not for European protection. It's for the maintenance of strategic American hegemony in Europe, under the guise of security protection. Even Trump knows this, because if he didn't, a request to withdraw would've been made in his first term. If Europe wanted to collectively protect themselves from Russia they could, and would develop sufficient independent capability. The US doesn't keep its second largest foreign troop contingent in Germany because Germany cannot develop its own troops - it does so because that's the deal that came out of WW2 and European settlement. The only reason why Europe presently relies on the US to lead in Ukraine is because the US ensured Europe would be reliant on them.
I think having huge numbers of military bases in Germany was discernibly more hawkish than anything NATO has done towards Russia.

How do you think Russia would have reacted to that suggestion on their territory after the Berlin Wall came down?

And you’ve conspicuously avoided addressing the main thrust of my post, namely Russia’s historical, inveterate truculence. To that end, Germany has more than proved its positive credentials in the last 80 years, Russia has earned no such right.
 
How can you invite Russia into a EU wide defence agreement when the primary thing defence is needed from is...Russia? The 90's was probably when NATO was needed most because it allowed the former USSR states to get up and running without risk of being invaded.
We need NATO as a defensive organisation nothing has changed, since the Second World War Russia is still the aggressor it has attacked/invaded Crimea, Ukraine, Georgia Afghanistan.and several other states Chechnya.
Ukraine stands between Russia and the rest of Europe Putin has made no secret of his desire to create the old USSR
 
How can you invite Russia into a EU wide defence agreement when the primary thing defence is needed from is...Russia? The 90's was probably when NATO was needed most because it allowed the former USSR states to get up and running without risk of being invaded.
I am talkomg abput then not now, when. the soviets and warsaw pact colapsed, instead of lording it over them and letting the US try to introduce capitalism to them, we should have been drawing the russians back into the european fold.

Instead we let ex KGB heads and gansters take the reigns by backing a pisshead called Boris
 
It might be a good plan to put loads of women and children (or even better, “influencers”) on the tankers so that our good friends the Iranians wouldn’t dream of blowing them up. Sorted.
 
I think having huge numbers of military bases in Germany was discernibly more hawkish than anything NATO has done towards Russia.

How do you think Russia would have reacted to that suggestion on their territory after the Berlin Wall came down?

And you’ve conspicuously avoided addressing the main thrust of my post, namely Russia’s historical, inveterate truculence. To that end, Germany has more than proved its positive credentials in the last 80 years, Russia has earned no such right.

Hawish towards who? 'Hawish' implies a continued stand-off and bipolarity. This is not the relationship that exists between the US and Germany post WW2. Germany had its armed forces suppressed and US bases built in return for reintegration and nation rebuilding. That's the deal they accepted and continue to accept.

Could the US ever have made Russia a similar strategic client? Probably not. But they were never given a proper chance to alter their posture. Your assumptions of their predicted behaviour based on their history are therefore a self-fulfilling prophecy and negligible to the debate.
 
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They had been sanctioned since 1979 by us and the US, freezing them of their US$14 billion (which in today’s finance is in hundreds of billions).

Yet they didn’t go rogue and strangle Hormuz. They followed international policies. Hormuz had been free passage for close to 50 years. They had the opportunity geographically, but they didn’t take it.

In contrast, all other straits, canals and passages had tolls for decades and centuries even.

Their control of Hormuz now is not a surprise. If Iran manages it benevolently and with grace while still charging fees, there’s nothing wrong with it. Iran has been strangled with endless sanctions and inflation for decades.

If all sanctions lifted, and alliances forged between US and Iran (Israel stay out) and no more bad blood, no more Pahlavian castle-in-the-air dream, Iran being the beautiful multi terrain country that it is, can be the new Emirates. Maybe, if that hardline regime mellowed.

Israel leave out and stick to the pariah state that they are increasingly becoming. They’re the chaos monger of the middle east. Once they grow out of their superiority complex, which is a big ask what with their quest for a Greater Israel and Third Temple to fulfill their prophecy of God’s most chosen people, then there’s a possibility.

There is no strait or sea that charge tolls. There are some canals that do as they were man made and provide huge savings in journey times - they don’t prevent ships from transiting from origin to destination - ie if you don’t want to pay the toll go a different way. Kuwait doesn’t have that luxury for example, Saudi had a pipe which gave them some access to move some oil via the Suez Canal - which Iran hit a few hours after ceasefire came in to effect - and with the Houthi’s having fire control over Bab al-Mandan Strait its somewhat limited.
 
Could the US ever have made Russia a similar strategic client? Probably not. But they were never given a proper chance to alter their posture. Your assumptions of their predicted behaviour based on their history are therefore a self-fulfilling prophecy and negligible to the debate.
Bizarre (and a logical fallacy) to couch the application of hard evidence to reach a conclusion (please see Georgia, Chechnya, Ukraine, Hungary - and bombing its own citizens in your decade of reference, the 1990s) as a self fulfilling prophecy, especially given your assumption is completely based on speculation, unless you have some evidence to support an argument of Russia not habitually acting like cunts, which you don’t or you’d have cited it by now.

And so it is your assumptions that are nugatory, not mine.
 
View attachment 188746

Looks like we're sending Reaper drones over Lebanon too and letting the Isralis know who to bomb fuck out of.
Fuck Israel. Fuck any governments that assist them. If they didn’t own US politics and to some extent, UK politicians then they’d be seen at an official level as the terrorist state that they are.

I’ve always said I’m a Zionist, that I believe Israel has the right to exist. But not like this. The Netanyahu government requires constant war to stay in power and their propaganda has brainwashed the majority living there into supporting every war and attack they perpetrate whilst always playing the fucking victim. Until those fuckers are no longer in power and/or dead along with the moronic desire for a Greater Israel then all they will do is kill civilians and destabilise the region.

They’re a far bigger threat and a far more dangerous set of cunts than Iran. I’m disgusted in our government for still supporting them.

And before any mouth breathing fucks claim antisemitism, I have absolutely no interest in their religion, any more than I have of Putin’s or whichever Kim is leading North Korea. Religion is bollocks anyway and they’re all shite. It’s everything to do with the actions of the governement and the acquiescence of the citizens of those countries.
 
Bizarre (and a logical fallacy) to couch the application of hard evidence to reach a conclusion (please see Georgia, Chechnya, Ukraine, Hungary - and bombing its own citizens in your decade of reference, the 1990s) as a self fulfilling prophecy, especially given your assumption is completely based on speculation, unless you have some evidence to support an argument of Russia not habitually acting like cunts, which you don’t or you’d have cited it by now.

And so it is your assumptions that are nugatory, not mine.

'Acting like cunts' isn't the basis for isolation and never has been mate. Otherwise you'd find a large number of countries in the same situation.

I am by no means a fan of Russia but I get it, there are blokes who are total Russia hawks and won't change. You appear to be one of them.
 
'Acting like cunts' isn't the basis for isolation and never has been mate. Otherwise you'd find a large number of countries in the same situation.

I am by no means a fan of Russia but I get it, there are blokes who are total Russia hawks and won't change. You appear to be one of them.
I’m not saying Russia isn’t capable of change, but it won’t happen in less than a generation, and so not in my lifetime I’d say. And I would need hard evidence before changing my view, and there is presently none.
 
tbf NATO should no longer exist, once the soviet union colapsed and the warsaw pact ended the EU should have been moving towards a european secutiy force alligned with the UN and gradually removing the US bases to be replaced by a continental army focussed on. fighting in defence of the region, not as a proxy for another nation, russia should have been invited to join. early doors to keep them involved and in check

When you disagree with every single word sometimes it’s best to just not bother even trying to reply.

Invite Russia in?

Stop it ffs.
 

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