Rony Lopes

[Neville Kneville]

With the exception of Real where he didn't get a chance - and he still tried.

He wanted to play Negredo - but Perez bought Benzema and then Ronaldo, which meant there was absolutely no room for him. He did bring through Marcelo, who was 21 at the time, and very much a fringe player, made him a starter. And he brought Ezekiel Garay (21 at the time) back from loan and made him a regular player.

His youth record is fantastic. A couple of season here when no academy players were ready to play in the senior team doesn't change that.

'Youth' is not 22/23 year olds.

On 18 May 2008 Racing sold Garay to Real Madrid, but received the player again on a season-long loan.

Marcelo made his debut as a substitute in the 2–0 defeat against Deportivo La Coruña on 7 January 2007. On 14 April 2007, then coach Fabio Capello gave Marcelo his first start for Real Madrid against Racing de Santander.

In the 2007–08 season, Marcelo had started nearly all of Madrid's league games under the new manager Bernd Schuster. His ability, speed running across the field, attack, and defence had enabled him to become a very important player for Real Madrid.

 

[g180aj]

Khaldoon said in his interview that there would be no compromise on the first team, a young player will only play if he can improve the starting 11, is lopes better than nasri or silva ?

Answer NO

Even though I'm no nasri fan.

If the so called big players are fit they will always start above the youngsters.

Personally I'd like to see them blooded and would love to see denayer lopes and keletchi start at WBA in place of Mangala bony and nasri.

The problem is you are still referring to Nasri as a starting 11 player and at this moment in time I wouldn't put him in our strongest 11 ( personally I'd put Rony in that ahead of Nasri anyway) and then if we add Pogba and big Kev where does that leave him!

The other point is Nasri could be sacrificed in order to get Pogba and his place would need filling in the squad.

 

[domalino]

'Youth' is not 22/23 year olds.

On 18 May 2008 Racing sold Garay to Real Madrid, but received the player again on a season-long loan.

Marcelo made his debut as a substitute in the 2–0 defeat against Deportivo La Coruña on 7 January 2007. On 14 April 2007, then coach Fabio Capello gave Marcelo his first start for Real Madrid against Racing de Santander.

In the 2007–08 season, Marcelo had started nearly all of Madrid's league games under the new manager Bernd Schuster. His ability, speed running across the field, attack, and defence had enabled him to become a very important player for Real Madrid.

Under the next head coach Manuel Pellegrini, Marcelo consistently featured in the starting XI for his versatility and pace along the left flank in offensive and defensive roles. He continued to be employed as a left-winger under Pellegrini, and reached the top of the assist charts of La Liga in the 2009–10 season. He admitted in a press conference at the end of 2009, "I now feel better playing as a winger."[11] His successful performance in Madrid's 2009–10 campaign earned him a contract extension on 5 February 2010 with the club until June 2015.[12] This season proved to be his break-through season at the club.

21/22 year olds are youth. Especially at clubs with the starting quality of Real Madrid or ourselves. That is the key difference between top clubs and the rest. 17 year olds don't break into great teams - there are no 17 year olds who can compete with world class players. But by 20/21 they can manage it if they are good enough.

 

[kunaguero10]

Who gave him his debut? Rony has a massive future at the club he won't be getting sold anytime soon!

Mancini.

 

[kunaguero10]

Khaldoon said in his interview that there would be no compromise on the first team, a young player will only play if he can improve the starting 11, is lopes better than nasri or silva ?

Naïve from Khaldoon. Very few youth players will improve their starting 11 at any club - by their very definition as they play for an inferior side within the club.

In his words, sometimes you have to 'take a pinch', this time in the form of a bit of extra risk in the short term, in order to reap the rewards of these excellent prospects in the long term.

When we are 3-0 up v Crystal Palace does the player need to be an improvement on the player he is being substituted on for? Was Scott Sinclair better? No, that was shite.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Under the next head coach Manuel Pellegrini, Marcelo consistently featured in the starting XI for his versatility and pace along the left flank in offensive and defensive roles. He continued to be employed as a left-winger under Pellegrini, and reached the top of the assist charts of La Liga in the 2009–10 season. He admitted in a press conference at the end of 2009, "I now feel better playing as a winger."[11] His successful performance in Madrid's 2009–10 campaign earned him a contract extension on 5 February 2010 with the club until June 2015.[12] This season proved to be his break-through season at the club.

21/22 year olds are youth. Especially at clubs with the starting quality of Real Madrid or ourselves. That is the key difference between top clubs and the rest. 17 year olds don't break into great teams - there are no 17 year olds who can compete with world class players. But by 20/21 they can manage it if they are good enough.

Nobody has mentioned 'breaking into' great teams. It's getting some time on the pitch which is important imo, so that you are ready to 'break into' the squad as a trusted player, rather than the team, when the time comes.

Have a look at the age rags & Arsenal are starting their kids off. And how old they used to be when City started them. Or how old Sterling was.

I don't know for a fact, but I recon it's nailed on that City & Chelsea are two of the worst teams in Europe for giving kids first team experience, in recent years. Because basically, we don't.

 

[SuperBlu]

I disagree yes he needs game time but he doesn't need burning out! More importantly he needs to be around the world class players in our squad learning!

If you keep Sinclair with world class players he will not end up being Arjen Robben.

Hazard become one of the best players because he was playing regularly when he was 18 years old, the same thing apply for Sterling , Rooney ....etc

 

[bugsyblue]

Under the next head coach Manuel Pellegrini, Marcelo consistently featured in the starting XI for his versatility and pace along the left flank in offensive and defensive roles. He continued to be employed as a left-winger under Pellegrini, and reached the top of the assist charts of La Liga in the 2009–10 season. He admitted in a press conference at the end of 2009, "I now feel better playing as a winger."[11] His successful performance in Madrid's 2009–10 campaign earned him a contract extension on 5 February 2010 with the club until June 2015.[12] This season proved to be his break-through season at the club.

21/22 year olds are youth. Especially at clubs with the starting quality of Real Madrid or ourselves. That is the key difference between top clubs and the rest. 17 year olds don't break into great teams - there are no 17 year olds who can compete with world class players. But by 20/21 they can manage it if they are good enough.

Fabregas, Messi, Aguero were all first team players at big clubs when they were 17,18, 19. Obviously they are fantastic talents so an exception to the rule. However I would agree with Neville that once they are over 21 they can't be classed as youth.

 

[aguero93:20]

Even then Pozo was still a goal line clearance from bagging a debut goal.

Not sure about Pellegrini's record with youth though to be honest, exceptional talents like Isco, Cazorla and Godin don't disprove the counter argument much, IMO. He'd be an absolute fool to not utilise talents like that.

Suppose we'll see what will happen in the coming months though, Denayer should definitely be getting some minutes as far as I'm concerned.

He'd also be an absolute fool to keep throwing youth players in regardless of whether they're ready or not, it's a balancing act. He has 3 now, arguably 4 including Manu Garcia, who look ready to be in and around the first team, let's see how much he uses them before getting the pitchforks out.

 

[twosips]

Nobody has mentioned 'breaking into' great teams. It's getting some time on the pitch which is important imo, so that you are ready to 'break into' the squad as a trusted player, rather than the team, when the time comes.

Have a look at the age rags & Arsenal are starting their kids off. And how old they used to be when City started them. Or how old Sterling was.

I don't know for a fact, but I recon it's nailed on that City & Chelsea are two of the worst teams in Europe for giving kids first team experience, in recent years. Because basically, we don't.

100%.

Guarantee you that if Barker, Maffeo, Angelino, Gunn, Bryan, Celina, Pozo, Ambrose, Evans, Ntcham etc were United or Arsenal players they would have had five games each at least by now at United or Arsenal, some maybe with more, because they give kids a go in cup runs and use them as the odd impact sub. Call that step 'A'. This obviously then starts to slowly prepare them for the age of 20 when they start to get 10-15 appearances as a squad player (step 'B') and then they usually leap up around 21-22 to becoming proper first team regular members getting 30+ games. Step 'C' if you like. But you can't get to 'C' if there isn't A & B first. You have to gradually ease them in.

Even arguably the greatest player ever did similar. Messi at Barca

2004–05 La Liga - 7 appearances
2005–06 17
2006–07 26

etc etc...

John Terry... 1st season 2...then 4, then 22, then 33.

As it stands, talented players like Barker etc will get to 20 and have 0. Thus meaning they have to suddenly leap to being good enough for 30 plus games, or we risk letting them go stale by the age of 21/22 and halt their progression.

 

[Mikejl]

100%.

Guarantee you that if Barker, Maffeo, Angelino, Gunn, Bryan, Celina, Pozo, Ambrose, Evans, Ntcham etc were United or Arsenal players they would have had five games each at least by now at United or Arsenal, some maybe with more, because they give kids a go in cup runs and use them as the odd impact sub. Call that step 'A'. This obviously then starts to slowly prepare them for the age of 20 when they start to get 10-15 appearances as a squad player (step 'B') and then they usually leap up around 21-22 to becoming proper first team regular members getting 30+ games. Step 'C' if you like. But you can't get to 'C' if there isn't A & B first. You have to gradually ease them in.

Even arguably the greatest player ever did similar. Messi at Barca

2004–05 La Liga - 7 appearances
2005–06 17
2006–07 26

etc etc...

John Terry... 1st season 2...then 4, then 22, then 33.

As it stands, talented players like Barker etc will get to 20 and have 0. Thus meaning they have to suddenly leap to being good enough for 30 plus games, or we risk letting them go stale by the age of 21/22 and halt their progression.

Spot on with this. This if anything has been MP greatest flaw, surely there must be internal pressure now to integrate some into the squad. It was laughable how often last season the subs bench contained 6 senior outfield players,, with 3 of these far from game changers. Minimum of 1 EDS player on the bench all games, they don't have to play, bring them on when it's suitable - purely being around first team action will enhance confidence & edge them a step closer. To watch as Sinclair came on whilst Ambrose stayed on the bench for the last 5 mins when we were 3-0 up was a joke.

 

[Deleted member 58678]

100%.

Guarantee you that if Barker, Maffeo, Angelino, Gunn, Bryan, Celina, Pozo, Ambrose, Evans, Ntcham etc were United or Arsenal players they would have had five games each at least by now at United or Arsenal, some maybe with more, because they give kids a go in cup runs and use them as the odd impact sub. Call that step 'A'. This obviously then starts to slowly prepare them for the age of 20 when they start to get 10-15 appearances as a squad player (step 'B') and then they usually leap up around 21-22 to becoming proper first team regular members getting 30+ games. Step 'C' if you like. But you can't get to 'C' if there isn't A & B first. You have to gradually ease them in.

Even arguably the greatest player ever did similar. Messi at Barca

2004–05 La Liga - 7 appearances
2005–06 17
2006–07 26

etc etc...

John Terry... 1st season 2...then 4, then 22, then 33.

As it stands, talented players like Barker etc will get to 20 and have 0. Thus meaning they have to suddenly leap to being good enough for 30 plus games, or we risk letting them go stale by the age of 21/22 and halt their progression.

We've played Blackburn twice, Watford, Wigan twice, Newcastle twice, Leicester, West Ham twice, Sheffield Wednesday twice and Boro in the cups (as well as Cheslea once and a final against Sunderland but they aren't likely to feature against them). And how many of our younger lads have played in those games? Compared to what Wenger would have done in the same situation?

We've also been 3,4,5 goals up at home and how many have come on and played a part when the game's done? When even Scott Sinclair got minutes in those games!

But I've said before. If they aren't good enough they won't play and maybe Pellegrini genuinely feels these lads aren't good enough or weren't good enough at the time or weren't ready despite being good enough.

 

[twosips]

We've played Blackburn twice, Watford, Wigan twice, Newcastle twice, Leicester, West Ham twice, Sheffield Wednesday twice and Boro in the cups (as well as Cheslea once and a final against Sunderland but they aren't likely to feature against them). And how many of our younger lads have played in those games? Compared to what Wenger would have done in the same situation?

We've also been 3,4,5 goals up at home and how many have come on and played a part when the game's done? When even Scott Sinclair got minutes in those games!

But I've said before. If they aren't good enough they won't play and maybe Pellegrini genuinely feels these lads aren't good enough or weren't good enough at the time or weren't ready despite being good enough.

Thing is, they are good enough. They're as good a bunch of kids as you're likely to find. They've got the performances to prove it too. Youth Cup Finalists, Premier League International Cup winners, excelling in the UEFA Youth League, repeatedly battering Bayern - Quarter Finalists unfortunately only undone by a horribly wily Roma team. They're better than the vast majority of youth players. Pellegrini's just bottling it for some baffling reason.

The Ambrose fiasco is the one that really sticks in my throat. Until this day I can't understand that. Evans too - we beat Hamburg in that friendly, he excels setting up Jovetic beautifully with a 50 yard assist. And he's a life long City fan and he had first team experience at that point. We're playing a championship team a few days later. What does Pellegrini do? Drop Evans entirely. Must be so demoralising. He earned a shot there, but just didnt even get close to getting it.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Thing is, they are good enough. They're as good a bunch of kids as you're likely to find. They've got the performances to prove it too. Youth Cup Finalists, Premier League International Cup winners, excelling in the UEFA Youth League, repeatedly battering Bayern - Quarter Finalists unfortunately only undone by a horribly wily Roma team. They're better than the vast majority of youth players. Pellegrini's just bottling it for some baffling reason.

The Ambrose fiasco is the one that really sticks in my throat. Until this day I can't understand that. Evans too - we beat Hamburg in that friendly, he excels setting up Jovetic beautifully with a 50 yard assist. And he's a life long City fan and he had first team experience at that point. We're playing a championship team a few days later. What does Pellegrini do? Drop Evans entirely. Must be so demoralising. He earned a shot there, but just didnt even get close to getting it.

The thing is, i don't really have an opinion on whether any of last season's EDS or U18s would have made a breakthough, as it's so hard to call. I suspect one or two may have done, as squad players at least. But it may be that none of them could have, at that time. But if all had 'some' experience, just ten mins as sub here & there, then it's an absolute fact that they would be in a better position to come on & make a contribution now.

Some of the 'butterflies' would have gone, & they would have an idea how quickly (& forecefully) they get closed down etc & be chomping at the bit, to have another go, after running it through in their heads all summer & thinking through how they need to improve.

Not only for City, but if a lad like Brandon Barker for example, (who imo has not done himself justice in friendly games yet, but has been fucked about in said games), if he goes& plays in the Championship & is a bit unsure, they will bench him for 6 weeks or stick him in their reserves. If he turns up there having nutmegged a couple of Prem defenders & set up Aguero for a tap in, he goes there feeling full of confidence.

Ferguson got bang average players into the England team, just by giving them a bit of experience as kids, at the swamp, then using them as squad players. Our lads have twice the talent most of those fuckers had, but aren't even getting a sniff. If he was in charge, they would all be better players now imo & in a year's time, full squad members.

I hope we make much more of an effort in this area, this season.

 

[uwe rosler 28]

If you keep Sinclair with world class players he will not end up being Arjen Robben.

Hazard become one of the best players because he was playing regularly when he was 18 years old, the same thing apply for Sterling , Rooney ....etc

I'd ronaldo and messi are better bench marks and they were eased in at the vermin and barca!

 

[twosips]

The thing is, i don't really have an opinion on whether any of last season's EDS or U18s would have made a breakthough, as it's so hard to call. I suspect one or two may have done, as squad players at least. But it may be that none of them could have, at that time. But if all had 'some' experience, just ten mins as sub here & there, then it's an absolute fact that they would be in a better position to come on & make a contribution now.

Some of the 'butterflies' would have gone, & they would have an idea how quickly (& forecefully) they get closed down etc & be chomping at the bit, to have another go, after running it through in their heads all summer & thinking through how they need to improve.

Not only for City, but if a lad like Brandon Barker for example, (who imo has not done himself justice in friendly games yet, but has been fucked about in said games), if he goes& plays in the Championship & is a bit unsure, they will bench him for 6 weeks or stick him in their reserves. If he turns up there having nutmegged a couple of Prem defenders & set up Aguero for a tap in, he goes there feeling full of confidence.

Ferguson got bang average players into the England team, just by giving them a bit of experience as kids, at the swamp, then using them as squad players. Our lads have twice the talent most of those fuckers had, but aren't even getting a sniff. If he was in charge, they would all be better players now imo & in a year's time, full squad members.

I hope we make much more of an effort in this area, this season.

It's impossibly hard to call, agree. But i'm almost certain one or two would have definitely made themselves useful at least. Maybe Barker could have won us a game as you said, or Ambrose might've made a couple of decent, competent performances making himself a real option if any of our made-of-glass strikers picked up knocks. Who knows?

The potential money we could save by seeing if one or two of these could actually be (at least) a new squad player is vast. Going rate for anyone half decent is at least £15m these days...hate praising Ferguson, but he was a master at it. He made Luke Chadwick and Danny Higginbotham useful for fucks sake.

 

[Ray78]

It's not solely down to talent. It's also is down to how the EDS lads interact with the first team and how quickly they take on board what the first team manager expects from the player.

 

[PragueBlue]

100%.

Guarantee you that if Barker, Maffeo, Angelino, Gunn, Bryan, Celina, Pozo, Ambrose, Evans, Ntcham etc were United or Arsenal players they would have had five games each at least by now at United or Arsenal, some maybe with more, because they give kids a go in cup runs and use them as the odd impact sub.

Just out of interest how many 17/18 year olds played for the rags/Arsenal last season?

 

[Neville Kneville]

It's impossibly hard to call, agree. But i'm almost certain one or two would have definitely made themselves useful at least. Maybe Barker could have won us a game as you said, or Ambrose might've made a couple of decent, competent performances making himself a real option if any of our made-of-glass strikers picked up knocks. Who knows?

The potential money we could save by seeing if one or two of these could actually be (at least) a new squad player is vast. Going rate for anyone half decent is at least £15m these days...hate praising Ferguson, but he was a master at it. He made Luke Chadwick and Danny Higginbotham useful for fucks sake.

When he had better players back in the day, he would often give them a game, or a few games, then loan them out afterwards. Which is what Spurs have done with Harry Kane. The absolute best ones, ie Giggs, go straight into the first team setup.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Just out of interest how many 17/18 year olds played for the rags/Arsenal last season?

Why last season ? Why not over the past 20 years or so ? If we have a look at what Utd have now, ie James Wilson for instance, now age 19 (in Dec), ' 2014, Wilson was given his first taste of first-team action on 5 April with a place on the bench for the 4–0 away win over Newcastle United. He made his senior debut a month later when he started a Premier League match at home to Hull City on 6 May'

Januzai (20 last Feb): ' Januzaj made his competitive debut for Manchester United against Wigan Athletic on 11 August 2013'

Beckham: 17. Giggs 17.

And Arsenal, for example: Walcott was playing for England already. Milner at Leeds ? Sterling at Liverpool ?

There are 1000s across football. They don't necessarily stay in the team or even at the club. Beckham was loaned out afterwards for example, like Harry Kane.