United Thread 2015/16

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Gary James said:
City tour guide? You need to check your facts on that and so much more. Yes I have been on the away end at Anfield (away corner actually back then was where they had terracing for away fans of course!), and know all about rivalries, hence my comments. In 1991 I published The Pride of Manchester (history of Manc derby) and have researched every single derby game. I know about the acid bottles thrown over the roped barrier on the Kippax on derby day in the 1960s and early 1970s. Violence, sadly, was always a part of life at football grounds - I remember Everton fans lying in wait for City when we returned to Victoria Station from Blackburn in 1984-85 on the same day they'd played MUFC, as well as many other incidents at Elland Road, Anfield and elsewhere. But violence doesn't mean a derby style rivalry, if it did then City's biggest 1990s rivals were Millwall and United's greatest rivals of the 70s would be Leeds - or City if we're talking about violence, pitch invasions and so on.

A derby rivalry is multi-faceted and involves all sorts of scenarios such as the more banter style pranks that used to be performed in the 1920s - I have some great stories of how Utd fans broke into Hyde Rd and painted the fence blue on derby day for example.

Utd-LFC is a rivalry about success and it was made prominent by Fergie. Before Fergie it was intense at times, but not regarded as a derby (other than the typical old Lancashire derby comments). Utd & LFC fixed a game for gawd's sake - would you do that with your biggest rivals!
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That's the type of literary owning that only a professional writer can dish out. Impressive.
 
Gary James said:
City tour guide? You need to check your facts on that and so much more. Yes I have been on the away end at Anfield (away corner actually back then was where they had terracing for away fans of course!), and know all about rivalries, hence my comments. In 1991 I published The Pride of Manchester (history of Manc derby) and have researched every single derby game. I know about the acid bottles thrown over the roped barrier on the Kippax on derby day in the 1960s and early 1970s. Violence, sadly, was always a part of life at football grounds - I remember Everton fans lying in wait for City when we returned to Victoria Station from Blackburn in 1984-85 on the same day they'd played MUFC, as well as many other incidents at Elland Road, Anfield and elsewhere. But violence doesn't mean a derby style rivalry, if it did then City's biggest 1990s rivals were Millwall and United's greatest rivals of the 70s would be Leeds - or City if we're talking about violence, pitch invasions and so on.

A derby rivalry is multi-faceted and involves all sorts of scenarios such as the more banter style pranks that used to be performed in the 1920s - I have some great stories of how Utd fans broke into Hyde Rd and painted the fence blue on derby day for example.

Utd-LFC is a rivalry about success and it was made prominent by Fergie. Before Fergie it was intense at times, but not regarded as a derby (other than the typical old Lancashire derby comments). Utd & LFC fixed a game for gawd's sake - would you do that with your biggest rivals!
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It's also well documented in a University of Liverpool study, that the building of the Manchester Ship canal was the start of the true rivalry between the cities of Manchester and Liverpool. People in Liverpool lost their jobs as ships by-passed them and made their way to Salford docks. Football only exacerbated and exaggerated this. Through-out Liverpool's 30 year dominance, you can go through the archived footage of all the United Managers through that era and they will say that Liverpool was the big game that they had to win. There have been numerous documentaries on the subject, with interviews from the people involved at the time, and none of them start with Alex Ferguson manufacturing the entire phenomenon. Using your view that nothing happened between Liverpool/United prior to 1986, is like saying that United fans didn't give a stuff about City until 2010. Then there's the fact that you are saying that my entire childhood, which consisted of pure hatred of anything to do with Liverpool was a figment of my imagination. Staggering.

 
shallyman said:
It's also well documented in a University of Liverpool study, that the building of the Manchester Ship canal was the start of the true rivalry between the cities of Manchester and Liverpool. People in Liverpool lost their jobs as ships by-passed them and made their way to Salford docks. Football only exacerbated and exaggerated this. Through-out Liverpool's 30 year dominance, you can go through the archived footage of all the United Managers through that era and they will say that Liverpool was the big game that they had to win. There have been numerous documentaries on the subject, with interviews from the people involved at the time, and none of them start with Alex Ferguson manufacturing the entire phenomenon. Using your view that nothing happened between Liverpool/United prior to 1986, is like saying that United fans didn't give a stuff about City until 2010. Then there's the fact that you are saying that my entire childhood, which consisted of pure hatred of anything to do with Liverpool was a figment of my imagination. Staggering.

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Here's a thought, go and spend time on the dippers forums and fuck off from the City ones......
 
shallyman said:
It's also well documented in a University of Liverpool study, that the building of the Manchester Ship canal was the start of the true rivalry between the cities of Manchester and Liverpool. People in Liverpool lost their jobs as ships by-passed them and made their way to Salford docks. Football only exacerbated and exaggerated this. Through-out Liverpool's 30 year dominance, you can go through the archived footage of all the United Managers through that era and they will say that Liverpool was the big game that they had to win. There have been numerous documentaries on the subject, with interviews from the people involved at the time, and none of them start with Alex Ferguson manufacturing the entire phenomenon. Using your view that nothing happened between Liverpool/United prior to 1986, is like saying that United fans didn't give a stuff about City until 2010. Then there's the fact that you are saying that my entire childhood, which consisted of pure hatred of anything to do with Liverpool was a figment of my imagination. Staggering.

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Tell you what, tallyman, I will take Gary James' well-researched information over your dodgy memory any day of the week?
 
Vienna_70 said:
Tell you what, tallyman, I will take Gary James' well-researched information over your dodgy memory any day of the week?
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I'm not going to question the integrity of a book written by a City fan, or to say it was written for City fans, or that it has a City narrative. Although, my suspicions are somewhat raised when so many City fans use it to back up their arguments. Having not read it myself, I'm certain that it's objective and full of complementary stories and facts about United. . I'll make sure to pick up a copy from the souvenir shop at Old Trafford!
 
shallyman said:
It's also well documented in a University of Liverpool study, that the building of the Manchester Ship canal was the start of the true rivalry between the cities of Manchester and Liverpool. People in Liverpool lost their jobs as ships by-passed them and made their way to Salford docks. Football only exacerbated and exaggerated this. Through-out Liverpool's 30 year dominance, you can go through the archived footage of all the United Managers through that era and they will say that Liverpool was the big game that they had to win. There have been numerous documentaries on the subject, with interviews from the people involved at the time, and none of them start with Alex Ferguson manufacturing the entire phenomenon. Using your view that nothing happened between Liverpool/United prior to 1986, is like saying that United fans didn't give a stuff about City until 2010. Then there's the fact that you are saying that my entire childhood, which consisted of pure hatred of anything to do with Liverpool was a figment of my imagination. Staggering.
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You insult someone personally and then come back with another retort when you should have instead been issuing an apology. Staggering.
 
shallyman said:
I'm not going to question the integrity of a book written by a City fan, or to say it was written for City fans, or that it has a City narrative. Although, my suspicions are somewhat raised when so many City fans use it to back up their arguments. Having not read it myself, I'm certain that it's objective and full of complementary stories and facts about United. . I'll make sure to pick up a copy from the souvenir shop at Old Trafford!
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As a blue going back nearly 50 years, I can tell you we've always had a deep rivalry with United. But this Liverpool/Utd rivalry is relatively recent and sparked by the Baconface's desire to knock Liverpool off their perch. In my student days in the mid-1970's, one of my flatmates was a Liverpool fan and I went to Old Trafford with him a couple of times to see the rags play Liverpool and I can tell you that the specific hatred that exists today simply wasn't present them (apart from the standard hatred that any two groups of fans had for each other back then). It was just another game.

Furthermore, if the story about the Ship Canal was true, then why don't City fans have the same rivalry with Everton & Liverpool (and vice versa)?
 
shallyman said:
It's also well documented in a University of Liverpool study, that the building of the Manchester Ship canal was the start of the true rivalry between the cities of Manchester and Liverpool. People in Liverpool lost their jobs as ships by-passed them and made their way to Salford docks.
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That's utter bollocks however well you document it. It ignores the fact that the Liverpool dock system was, until the late 1960's, one of the most sophisticated in the world and could take huge tonnage of ocean going ships.

Manchester was piddling in comparison and took very little trade away from Liverpool, maninly because only relatively small ships (around 500' in length) could use it. Even today, when it's not even in the top 5 ports in the UK, Liverpool handles more than twice as much tonnage as Manchester at its peak.
 
shallyman said:
It's also well documented in a University of Liverpool study, that the building of the Manchester Ship canal was the start of the true rivalry between the cities of Manchester and Liverpool. People in Liverpool lost their jobs as ships by-passed them and made their way to Salford docks. Football only exacerbated and exaggerated this. Through-out Liverpool's 30 year dominance, you can go through the archived footage of all the United Managers through that era and they will say that Liverpool was the big game that they had to win. There have been numerous documentaries on the subject, with interviews from the people involved at the time, and none of them start with Alex Ferguson manufacturing the entire phenomenon. Using your view that nothing happened between Liverpool/United prior to 1986, is like saying that United fans didn't give a stuff about City until 2010. Then there's the fact that you are saying that my entire childhood, which consisted of pure hatred of anything to do with Liverpool was a figment of my imagination. Staggering.

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Also music..... the Scousers couldn't handle the fact that The Smiths knocked the Beetles off their perch as greatest ever band ever ;)
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
That's utter bollocks however well you document it. It ignores the fact that the Liverpool dock system was, until the late 1960's, one of the most sophisticated in the world and could take huge tonnage of ocean going ships.

Manchester was piddling in comparison and took very little trade away from Liverpool, maninly because only relatively small ships (around 500' in length) could use it. Even today, when it's not even in the top 5 ports in the UK, Liverpool handles more than twice as much tonnage as Manchester at its peak.
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The MSC was Britain's 3rd busiest port when opened, so it must have took a lot of trade away from the port of Liverpool.
 
Mad Eyed Screamer said:
The MSC was Britain's 3rd busiest port when opened, so it must have took a lot of trade away from the port of Liverpool.
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That's because Liverpool,thinking they had a monopoly, charged high tariffs on cotton imports. So the Ship Canal was built to get round these tariffs. They would have lost revenue from the cotton but still think a lot of other cargo either stayed in Liverpool or was loaded onto Manchester bound ships there. But to suggest that the rivalry between the rags and Liverpool has existed because the MSC was built is pure nonsense.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
That's because Liverpool,thinking they had a monopoly, charged high tariffs on cotton imports. So the Ship Canal was built to get round these tariffs. They would have lost revenue from the cotton but still think a lot of other cargo either stayed in Liverpool or was loaded onto Manchester bound ships there. But to suggest that the rivalry between the rags and Liverpool has existed because the MSC was built is pure nonsense.
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And there's me thinking their rivalry went as far back as the Ming dynasty...
 
Mad Eyed Screamer said:
The MSC was Britain's 3rd busiest port when opened, so it must have took a lot of trade away from the port of Liverpool.
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That's because Liverpool,thinking they had a monopoly, charged high tariffs on cotton imports. So the Ship Canal was built to get round these tariffs. They would have lost revenue from the cotton but still think a lot of other cargo either stayed in Liverpool or was loaded onto Manchester bound ships there. But to suggest that the rivalry between the rags and Liverpool has existed because the MSC was built is pure nonsense.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
That's because Liverpool,thinking they had a monopoly, charged high tariffs on cotton imports. So the Ship Canal was built to get round these tariffs. They would have lost revenue from the cotton but still think a lot of other cargo either stayed in Liverpool or was loaded onto Manchester bound ships there. But to suggest that the rivalry between the rags and Liverpool has existed because the MSC was built is pure nonsense.
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To be fair, I don't think he was implying that United and Liverpool's rivalry was created by the MSC but rather the rivalry between the two cities.

I believe that there has always been a big rivalry between the two (well, since the 70's anyway) but that was because Liverpool were the club that United wanted to be. This is just the same as when Wenger took over Arsenal and them and United became THE grudge game in English football for a few years.

Now that City are on top, United absolutely see us as their biggest game and I couldn't give two fucks what they try to argue differently. The reaction to them beating us at Old Trafford last season was in complete contrast to them beating Liverpool last week and all the clips from the SKY archives won't convince me of anything else.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
That's because Liverpool,thinking they had a monopoly, charged high tariffs on cotton imports. So the Ship Canal was built to get round these tariffs. They would have lost revenue from the cotton but still think a lot of other cargo either stayed in Liverpool or was loaded onto Manchester bound ships there. But to suggest that the rivalry between the rags and Liverpool has existed because the MSC was built is pure nonsense.
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Slaves!
 
The fact that those cunts will go 2 points behind us today (we all know they'll fluke a win) is, quite frankly, embarrassing considering the levels of performance and the difference in quality between the two sides.

I fucking hate them. And it's the fact that we could have fucked our lead over them that's making me feel sick about that loss yesterday.

Infuriating.
 
Big Yaya Wilko 12 said:
The fact that those cunts will go 2 points behind us today (we all know they'll fluke a win) is, quite frankly, embarrassing considering the levels of performance and the difference in quality between the two sides.

I fucking hate them. And it's the fact that we could have fucked our lead over them that's making me feel sick about that loss yesterday.

Infuriating.
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I think Southampton have been poor because Koeman's heart is not in it anymore (he wants the Holland job) but apparently he despises the turtle so I think he will have his team motivated today.
 
Big Yaya Wilko 12 said:
The fact that those cunts will go 2 points behind us today (we all know they'll fluke a win) is, quite frankly, embarrassing considering the levels of performance and the difference in quality between the two sides.

I fucking hate them. And it's the fact that we could have fucked our lead over them that's making me feel sick about that loss yesterday.

Infuriating.
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And to think if they win today and sat against Sunderland and we fcuk up at Spurs they could be above us,what a horrible fcuking thought especially with the difference in the football being played...
 
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