Attacks in Paris

EalingBlue2 said:
No it wouldn't families would be murdering other families for their cave and we would be dying of diseases we have cited for centuries - human nature in the absence of politics and religion would still be fighting for resources
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It was tongue in cheek apart from despising politians
 
grim up north said:
It was tongue in cheek apart from despising politians
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I wasn't taking you seriously but was making a point that we always look to blame for war and the bad things. We blame individuals or religions or politics but the truth is you put two one year olds in front of one treat and they will fight. Whilst resources are scarce those with less will always fight for more. Maybe one day we will create infinite food, medication, energy etc and then maybe we will evolve out of conflict
 
coleridge said:
I don't have a path. Merely a life time of learning and experience. I believe that both governments and hierarchical theologies are seminally oppressive. My only theory is that I want to live as a free person with a free mind.
If you want to understand the world, start with the logic that everything is business. Then understand that the top four war mongerers are also the top four arms manufacturers and traders, in descending order, the US, UK, France and Russia. Then, my friend, everything should become obvious to someone of your undoubted intellect.
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Not you, you personally, the wider you.
Oh i am with you personally the individual you, on most of that Mr C particularly the last paragraph and that is where the true nature of terrorism begins. However that is a huge pill to swallow here.
 
Green Party statement: "World leaders must defeat ISIS using the weapon that these terrorists fear most of all: peace talks."

Beyond parody.
 
Benarbia_is_god said:
Green Party statement: "World leaders must defeat ISIS using the weapon that these terrorists fear most of all: peace talks."

Beyond parody.
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I know when people say is this a joke is tongue in cheek most of time, but is this actually a joke because I laughed. I think I'm not a very intelligent person, but I've got hope when there's people coming out with stuff like that.
 
foxy said:
If ISIS was a recognised military establishment or political party then I'd suggest diplomacy, but they are a cult, like something from Mad Max but worse. You can't wave a white flag and meet for talks, there's no option. If talks were to be attempted it gives ISIS recognition which it does not deserve in any way. I don't think there is one way of defeating ISIS, I think it will take a number of tactics.

One obvious and easy answer is to drone strike ISIS strongholds which we know of but then there's the risk of civilian casualties. I also don't know how much of an impact it will be, there are several ngative possible outcomes. This may kick the hornet's nest and provoke ISIS to carry out further civilian attacks in Europe. It may anger members further giving them the best recruitment tool they need. Learning from recent conflicts in the Middle East whilst ISIS can be destroyed it will probably be replaced with a similar cult.

In an ideal world and what I'd love to see is ISIS being toppled with minimal casualties to innocent civilians and for a democratic regime to be set up in Syria. However, learning from our lessons in Iraq, this will not work. I am not going to be Mr popular with this thought but I think the only realistic solution is to carry out airstrikes and fund local militia to defeat ISIS. Once ISIS has been defeated then for a strong leader to be put in place. I don't agree with the principle but the Middle East is massively different from Europe, there are so many conflicting tribes and wings of Islam. The locals have grown up under leaders who have ruled with an iron rod. I am not suggesting that this should be the future in fact I think the ME should be as democratic and liberal as the West, I just think it will take a century for this to happen.

I do not have an obsession with Corbyn and I don't read the Daily Mail, I can work out from my own findings that he is a danger the national security. I actually watched his interview on the BBC earlier which prompted my comments about him. Today the UK government has given the go ahead for Special Forces and the Police to shoot to kill which I think is a reasonable and realistic tactic to prevent a terror attack. Whilst there's the risk of another Jean Charles de Menezes incident occurring, I don't think there's any other rational approach of tackling a gunman or suicide bomber. Corbyn's approach would involve casualties to innocent citizens, something he doesn't seem too concerned about. He seems awfully concerned over the welfare of ISIS members rather than the safety of our nation.
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Benarbia_is_god said:
Green Party statement: "World leaders must defeat ISIS using the weapon that these terrorists fear most of all: peace talks."

Beyond parody.
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Given that IS was created out of the chaos caused by real weapons used by American and British forces in Iraq I would have thought the parody was initiated somewhat earlier.
 
bluethrunthru said:
I think you'll find Cameron says he is recruiting 1900 spooks for MI5 and MI6 - the truth is somewhat different. Redundancies and being deferred - posts that were being lost are being kept open but unfilled and temporary staff are having their contracts extended by 3 months. The actual number of NEW FTE will be minimal Thats not recruiting any more "security staff". Anyway new spooks recruited this week will be months in training before any tangible results will come from it.
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You're wrong, GCHQ in particular, has already recruited a significant number recently, and that won't include the new quota. We might be losing 'armed forces', but the new battle for the UK isn't an armed one, its an intelligence one.
 
chabal said:
Given that IS was created out of the chaos caused by real weapons used by American and British forces in Iraq I would have thought the parody was initiated somewhat earlier.
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I think that is quite the lazy answer to the how they came about, when you study history you find that throughout it's history Islam has dormant and active periods the active periods are often characterised by violence and conquest the dormant periods the reverse normally happens (most of the 19th and 20th Centuries were quite dormant periods for Islam)

But you also can not separate the social background of many of it's members, most of them are not really Islamic in the sense of the word i.e scholars or even people who have taken a great interest in their religion many of them are from dysfunctional backgrounds, and to them ISIS is just another gang that they can feel part of
 
Ducado said:
I think that is quite the lazy answer to the how they came about, when you study history you find that throughout it's history Islam has dormant and active periods the active periods are often characterised by violence and conquest the dormant periods the reverse normally happens (most of the 19th and 20th Centuries were quite dormant periods for Islam)

But you also can not separate the social background of many of it's members, most of them are not really Islamic in the sense of the word i.e scholars or even people who have taken a great interest in their religion many of them are from dysfunctional backgrounds, and to them ISIS is just another gang that they can feel part of
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We are not talking about Islam here as a whole - we are talking about Sunni Muslims who used the chaos following 2003 to launch IS in (I think) 2006.

Without the invasion of Iraq I do not believe we would have the situation we have now.
 
cleavers said:
You're wrong, GCHQ in particular, has already recruited a significant number recently, and that won't include the new quota. We might be losing 'armed forces', but the new battle for the UK isn't an armed one, its an intelligence one.
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Not really as I have that info virtually first had as to what is happening. Just boils down to what I say about politicians lying and disseminating - Cameron says he is GOING to recruit 1900 - so if GCHQ has ALREADY recruited prior to that announcement today those recruits are not part of the deal - however we both know its bollocks
 
Ducado said:
But you also can not separate the social background of many of it's members, most of them are not really Islamic in the sense of the word i.e scholars or even people who have taken a great interest in their religion many of them are from dysfunctional backgrounds, and to them ISIS is just another gang that they can feel part of
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You're right, of those from the UK that head down the jihadist route, most have no employment (or no interest in employment), and often have some sort of minor criminal record, then come into contact with "radicals" in the system, I doubt the rest of the world is anything different. That's an area we (globally) need to address.
 
chabal said:
We are not talking about Islam here as a whole - we are talking about Sunni Muslims who used the chaos following 2003 to launch IS in (I think) 2006.

Without the invasion of Iraq I do not believe we would have the situation we have now.
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Have you been speaking to Tony B? Have you persuaded him to actually see the error of his ways now? If so good work. Can you get him to dob Dubbya in now and present themselves to the Hague for a warcrimes trial please?
 
cleavers said:
You're right, of those from the UK that head down the jihadist route, most have no employment (or no interest in employment), and often have some sort of minor criminal record, then come into contact with "radicals" in the system, I doubt the rest of the world is anything different. That's an area we (globally) need to address.
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I thought three out of the four 7/7 bombers worked for a living? One was a Youth Worker for starters
 
bluethrunthru said:
Not really as I have that info virtually first had as to what is happening. Just boils down to what I say about politicians lying and disseminating - Cameron says he is GOING to recruit 1900 - so if GCHQ has ALREADY recruited prior to that announcement today those recruits are not part of the deal - however we both know its bollocks
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I've no idea what "you know", but I definitely know that they have recruited significant numbers recently, and they are targeted specifically at this sort of intelligence.

I have no political bias, so not interested in the politics of it like you are.
 
chabal said:
We are not talking about Islam here as a whole - we are talking about Sunni Muslims who used the chaos following 2003 to launch IS in (I think) 2006.

Without the invasion of Iraq I do not believe we would have the situation we have now.
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One could argue that the resurgence was actually started by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and despite being at the opposite end of the spectrum the revolution in Iran al assisted by interference from the West and the law of unintended consequences
 
cleavers said:
You're right, of those from the UK that head down the jihadist route, most have no employment (or no interest in employment), and often have some sort of minor criminal record, then come into contact with "radicals" in the system, I doubt the rest of the world is anything different. That's an area we (globally) need to address.
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I don't actually think a lack of employment plays a big part in this. You can have a sense of 'separateness' whilst still maintaining a seemingly active participation in normal mainstream life.
 
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