EU referendum

[mackenzie]

The multi nationals really do run the whole world don't they, can't see it happening but to even contemplate it is worrying, there maybe a difference of opinion on Europe but we need to be as far removed from the American model as we possibly can be

They certainly seek to, and that includes a desire to run it on their rules with a free rein.
It was a fellow Union activist who told me about it. I'd never heard of it and I would class myself as someone very interested in current affairs.

 

[CityStu]

These are the sort of treaties that the outers would sign up to for the UK. The Brexit leaders have said as much in virtually every interview I've seen or heard. Those posters linking this to anti EU rhetoric are a bit misguided!

Not misguided at all. It is a bit ironic but the grand point remains the same.

If a UK party puts introducing TTIP into their manifesto and gets elected then they have a legitimate, democratic right to introduce that proposal and be accountable for it. They could also not get elected - I suspect it would be a deal breaker for many voters.

The EU on the other hand has no accountability. I doubt any average European is thrilled about the prospect of US corporations being able to sue their governments (taking their taxes essentially) but the EU is allowed to carry on with the proposal regardless.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Not misguided at all. It is a bit ironic but the grand point remains the same.

If a UK party puts introducing TTIP into their manifesto and gets elected then they have a legitimate, democratic right to introduce that proposal and be accountable for it. They could also not get elected - I suspect it would be a deal breaker for many voters.

The EU on the other hand has no accountability. I doubt any average European is thrilled about the prospect of US corporations being able to sue their governments (taking their taxes essentially) but the EU is allowed to carry on with the proposal regardless.

The UK Government is one of the main supporters of this treaty. The Tories won a clear majority at the general elections and didn't mention a top down reorganisation of the NHS that has cost between three and four billion pounds. I don't think this would have made the Tory manifesto.

These type of deals will be much more prevalent if we are outside the UK. All the Brexit lot have said as much. other Countries have taken steps to ensure TTIP won't damage their health and care services - our Govermebt won't di that!

 

[Len Rum]

Surprised that the outters aren't making more of this TTIP business.
Who knows maybe they will some time in the campaign.
Meanwhile one thing I am sure they will pursue is that it appears Dave's "deal" is not legally binding. 'Morally' you could say it is, but there is no legal compulsion that binds future heads of state ( i.e different from those currently in power) to include the agreement in any treaty change.

 

[SWP's back]

The UK Government is one of the main supporters of this treaty. The Tories won a clear majority at the general elections and didn't mention a top down reorganisation of the NHS that has cost between three and four billion pounds. I don't think this would have made the Tory manifesto.

These type of deals will be much more prevalent if we are outside the UK. All the Brexit lot have said as much. other Countries have taken steps to ensure TTIP won't damage their health and care services - our Govermebt won't di that!

Any proof they are one of the main supporters of the treaty?

And when you say they are, do you mean Cameron (who favors staying in the EU)?

 

[CityStu]

The UK Government is one of the main supporters of this treaty. The Tories won a clear majority at the general elections and didn't mention a top down reorganisation of the NHS that has cost between three and four billion pounds. I don't think this would have made the Tory manifesto.

These type of deals will be much more prevalent if we are outside the UK. All the Brexit lot have said as much. other Countries have taken steps to ensure TTIP won't damage their health and care services - our Govermebt won't di that!

Then if the Tories introduce an important policy unpopular with the majority without consulting them (putting in the manifesto), they would be highly unlikely to be re-elected and another party promising to scrap it could win.

Again, all of that is impossible in the EU - we can't vote out the current lot and vote a new bunch in. It is undemocratic.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Then if the Tories introduce an important policy unpopular with the majority without consulting them (putting in the manifesto), they would be highly unlikely to be re-elected and another party promising to scrap it could win.

Again, all of that is impossible in the EU - we can't vote out the current lot and vote a new bunch in. It is undemocratic.

Maybe so if Corbyn and co weren't pretty unpopular.

On the earlier point about TTIP and the Health Service, the NHS Confederation published a report saying that the NHS couldn't be damaged by TTIP. I am not convinced at all but I mention this because it would not be unreasonable for the Government to take notice of so called expert bodies (and thus it probably wouldn't be a manifesto issue).

 

[hilts]

Then if the Tories introduce an important policy unpopular with the majority without consulting them (putting in the manifesto), they would be highly unlikely to be re-elected and another party promising to scrap it could win.

Again, all of that is impossible in the EU - we can't vote out the current lot and vote a new bunch in. It is undemocratic.

Some are trying too hard to deflect from the self rule principle, the argument that the tories would do it anyhow is quite laughable, pretty desperate really

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Any proof they are one of the main supporters of the treaty?

And when you say they are, do you mean Cameron (who favors staying in the EU)?

I follow the save the NHS posters on Twitter and this topic is often discussed. The Government have made their support clear for TTIP (and so of the Brexit group for this type of treaty). There are many Tories with financial interests in independent / private health organisations - but Cameron is t one of them!

 

[urmston]

The Tory leadership of rich people, including lots of old Etonians.

Big business.

The Guardian and loony lefties everywhere, especially Islington.

They all want to stay in the EU and they all couldn't care less about ordinary working people.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Well as a lot of posters on here have said they will vote in so I don't need to be Sherlock Holmes

Fair enough - just thought you might be planning to walk around the streets abusing people.

 

[EalingBlue2]

The Tory leadership of rich people, including lots of old Etonians.

Big business.

The Guardian and loony lefties everywhere, especially Islington.

They all want to stay in the EU and they all couldn't care less about ordinary working people.

The leader of the out campaign and most of his main backers , include a huge whack of old Etonians and a lot of very rich self interested people.

This argument is two groups of wealthy self interested people arguing about what is best for them, feeding the population a lot of absolute bollocks and then letting the population decide based on knowing nothing but a load of the propganda they fed them. It's turning like the US with the Mail , express etc our own Koch brothers and Fox News and Cameron out Clinton.

This is the trouble every argument either side uses is as valid an argument against them as for them!

 

[EalingBlue2]

You don't know that at all.

It's funny that when a company publicly backs the campaign you support you welcome it yet when they refuse you decide it's only because they've 'not taken a political stance'.

Firstly I think the campaign is a nonsense not because I hugely support in but because it is focusing on all the wrong things.

Secondly i am surprised any companies took a stance on this unless they really though the impact is huge. Companies take political positions openly at their own peril especially if they are B2C and rarely do so. Most companies will keep quiet from a pragmatic point of view not because they are giving it withholding support. There will be some (maybe the banks) or companies with little European export and the desire to boost profits from less labour protection who will undoubtably be outters, there will be some who don't know , there will be some who think in but prefer to keep their own counsel. It is basic common sense and even a basic understanding of how multinationals and big business works can tell you that.

 

[BigJoe#1]

I know this old news but.... is it the thin end of the wedge? Was the speedy referendum called before this becomes big news later this summer?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...change-for-taking-back-deported-migrants.html

 

[hilts]

Fair enough - just thought you might be planning to walk around the streets abusing people.

Bit too nippy out to be fair

 

[inchy14]

Christ. Have only just read about it

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

It's horrendous.

Having just read that it's a further reason to vote out.

Shocking that, truly shocking.

 

[adrian99]

The UK Government is one of the main supporters of this treaty. The Tories won a clear majority at the general elections and didn't mention a top down reorganisation of the NHS that has cost between three and four billion pounds. I don't think this would have made the Tory manifesto.

These type of deals will be much more prevalent if we are outside the UK. All the Brexit lot have said as much. other Countries have taken steps to ensure TTIP won't damage their health and care services - our Govermebt won't di that!

The NHS top down re organisation came in the Tories first term in coalition with the Lib Dems so they didn't win a clear majority. But the point is that if we don't like what a government does in power we can vote them out, we can't vote out the EU commissioners nor can we vote out 678 of the 751 MEP. If voters started to punish governments for lying to them or started holding them accountable for their manifesto promises that would be a start but the option remains in a democracy. With democracy there is the possibility for change where there no democracy there is not.

 

[Deleted member 3896]

The NHS top down re organisation came in the Tories first term in coalition with the Lib Dems so they didn't win a clear majority. But the point is that if we don't like what a government does in power we can vote them out, we can't vote out the EU commissioners nor can we vote out 678 of the 751 MEP. If voters started to punish governments for lying to them or started holding them accountable for their manifesto promises that would be a start but the option remains in a democracy. With democracy there is the possibility for change where there no democracy there is not.

I can't vote out 649 out of 650 MPs. Or anybody at all in the House of Lords.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

When the French are doing more to scrutinise TTIP than our MPs its a poor show: http://bit.ly/1UkwYIi

 

[Tim of the Oak]

The NHS top down re organisation came in the Tories first term in coalition with the Lib Dems so they didn't win a clear majority. But the point is that if we don't like what a government does in power we can vote them out, we can't vote out the EU commissioners nor can we vote out 678 of the 751 MEP. If voters started to punish governments for lying to them or started holding them accountable for their manifesto promises that would be a start but the option remains in a democracy. With democracy there is the possibility for change where there no democracy there is not.

Good point about the Condems term in office but the top down reorganisation of the NHS didn't even feature in the Tories manifesto! We wouldn't have heard of TTIP either if it was left to the politicians.

As well as the European Parliament, we have elected representation through the Council of Ministers. Yes getting decisions made in our favour takes collaboration / alliance building skills and the UK has shown a weakness in this area, even though we joined the Club where such skills are essential!

It's been quoted today that only four of the last 120 laws in the UK have been dictated by the EU. It's hardly being controlled by Brussels!