EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
CityStu said:
So even if it gets to the point that the UK is dissolved as a country and we become a state in a United Europe (a la the USA), you would not support the right of the British people to have a referendum on surrendering that amount of sovereignty?

I would certainly accept a party standing in the GE with a manifesto policy of having a referendum to return us into the EU. I just can't see them being very popular if a majority have just taken us out of the EU.
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My point entirely - we are having a referendum - thing is the "outers" will only accept the result if they "win" - total fucking waste of time because Cameron only did this to lance the Tory party weeping sore that is Europe and it will do noting of the sort.

In terms of popularity did a majority of manifesto's include a promise to take the UK out of the EU at the last election? I suspect the view from outside could quickly reverse the "popular" vote. However we shall see
 
CityStu said:
I take the opinion of people who don't have a vested interest in the UK being in the EU. I don't think the finance ministers of France or Italy are keen on losing a cash cow like the UK from the EU and I doubt Germany are going to be happy being the only remaining cash cow either.

Why is the pound dropping a bad thing - it is good for exports. And it's not in fear of Brexit - it's over the uncertainty of whether the UK will remain in the EU or not. I imagine it will rise again immediately after the referendum regardless of the direction of the vote. It also didn't drop as far as the Euro did! Oh, and the FTSE rose with speculation that we might be considering leaving - it's not world markets, it's one currency.
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Thats always the answer isn't it? Anybody who has a contrary view on being in the EU has a vested interest.... of course they do - we all do one way or another. The pound tanking is just an indication that the world views the uncertainty around our being in or out with a worry - as do companies like Rolls Royce and the others that said so last week. Vested interests I know and not to be trusted - all the way until they cut back investment in the UK or take jobs out of the UK.

The paranoia amongst the outers is palpable - anyone who doesn't agree isn't to be trusted yet all those who agree with them are salt of the earth who are patriotic Brits through and through - you know like Murdoch that proud Aussie, sorry British, sorry US citizen, I am strapping in for quite a ride.
 
bluethrunthru said:
My point entirely - we are having a referendum - thing is the "outers" will only accept the result if they "win" - total fucking waste of time because Cameron only did this to lance the Tory party weeping sore that is Europe and it will do noting of the sort.

In terms of popularity did a majority of manifesto's include a promise to take the UK out of the EU at the last election? I suspect the view from outside could quickly reverse the "popular" vote. However we shall see
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We are having a referendum now. If the situation has been changed completely in 5/10 years (just as we're now in a European Union rather than a Common Market) then why would another referendum be a bad thing? As I've said, if the EU continues with the UK on its current status quo, I am happy to be a part of it if that is the will of the UK people. If the status quo changes then is it wrong to assume the feelings of the UK people may have changed?

Yes, a majority of people voted either Tory, UKIP or Green - all of whom were offering a referendum.

Back on the scaremongering G20, has anyone actually said why there would be a shock to the global economy in the event of an out vote? The BBC article I've read doesn't mention it and it's a crucial difference between scaremongering and genuine concern.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Thats always the answer isn't it? Anybody who has a contrary view on being in the EU has a vested interest.... of course they do - we all do one way or another. The pound tanking is just an indication that the world views the uncertainty around our being in or out with a worry - as do companies like Rolls Royce and the others that said so last week. Vested interests I know and not to be trusted - all the way until they cut back investment in the UK or take jobs out of the UK.

The paranoia amongst the outers is palpable - anyone who doesn't agree isn't to be trusted yet all those who agree with them are salt of the earth who are patriotic Brits through and through - you know like Murdoch that proud Aussie, sorry British, sorry US citizen, I am strapping in for quite a ride.
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I explained why they have a vested interest. Argue the point.

I believe that the vast majority campaigning in or out are doing it out of personal interest.

I am still yet to see any In campaigner give a list of benefits of being in the EU that would not be possible with us outside the EU.
 
^^^this. Its uncertainty that causes a loss of confidence in the financial markets. The same thing happened when we had, or looked like we'd have a hung parliament. Once the decision is made the markets will stabilize. I just wish both the in and out lot would actually try to sell the positives of staying/leaving, rather than resorting to scare tactics and the politics of fear.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Quick question - Cards on the table I will be voting in. If I am on the wrong side of the vote then I accept we go with the flow and I have to live with it and either stay in a UK thats outside the EU or - if I am still allowed to - move abroad to somewhere in the EU.

If I am on the winning side of the vote will all the outers agree to the same rules? i.e. thats it you lost shut up and live with it or will there be just endless campaigning to come out and complaining that we are in the EU? If that the plan then frankly can't see the point of a referendum.
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Will accept, it is a democracy and he people will have spoken. We can't always have everything we want in life. Make the best of every opportunity.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Thats always the answer isn't it? Anybody who has a contrary view on being in the EU has a vested interest.... of course they do - we all do one way or another. The pound tanking is just an indication that the world views the uncertainty around our being in or out with a worry - as do companies like Rolls Royce and the others that said so last week. Vested interests I know and not to be trusted - all the way until they cut back investment in the UK or take jobs out of the UK.

The paranoia amongst the outers is palpable - anyone who doesn't agree isn't to be trusted yet all those who agree with them are salt of the earth who are patriotic Brits through and through - you know like Murdoch that proud Aussie, sorry British, sorry US citizen, I am strapping in for quite a ride.
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To take you up on your point about Rolls Royce. Surely it's all down to individual Businesses to asses their position. Take for example Aston Martin; why would they choose, at this moment of great uncertainty and huge risk (as the inner would have us believe) to invest so heavily if there was even a small chance it would fail? These people are paid a hell of a lot of money to make decisions, the right decisions. 750 jobs are to be created directly as a result of this investment - it kind of punches a hole in the speculative argument that it is a risk does it not?
 
CityStu said:
We are having a referendum now. If the situation has been changed completely in 5/10 years (just as we're now in a European Union rather than a Common Market) then why would another referendum be a bad thing? As I've said, if the EU continues with the UK on its current status quo, I am happy to be a part of it if that is the will of the UK people. If the status quo changes then is it wrong to assume the feelings of the UK people may have changed?

Yes, a majority of people voted either Tory, UKIP or Green - all of whom were offering a referendum.

Back on the scaremongering G20, has anyone actually said why there would be a shock to the global economy in the event of an out vote? The BBC article I've read doesn't mention it and it's a crucial difference between scaremongering and genuine concern.
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To your last point. I am continually wondering why the rest of the EU countries want us to stay in? I think part of the answer to that question would be linked to the estimated £10bn shortfall they would have to deal with. Either the remaining countries would have to make up the shorfall or swingeing cuts would have to be made, probably to the less well off nations.i doubt very much whether either option would be popular in Germany or France, likewise in countries like Ireland, Portugal and Greece, let alone the former etern bloc nations.
 
Helmet Cole said:
Been keeping an eye on this poll/thread, and interestingly the % either way seem pretty consistent no matter what is happening in the news. Assuming this poll is fairly representative of public feeling and blues are not a bunch of oddballs it looks like a brexit may well be on the cards. I suppose this is why we are being subjected to scare stories in the media and now from the g20 - as if its anything to do with those cunts. I just hope which ever way it goes we get to make the decision based on facts rather than fear and hype.
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The readers of this forum in no way reflect the general public, unless the public are now 95% male
 
CityStu said:
We are having a referendum now. If the situation has been changed completely in 5/10 years (just as we're now in a European Union rather than a Common Market) then why would another referendum be a bad thing? As I've said, if the EU continues with the UK on its current status quo, I am happy to be a part of it if that is the will of the UK people. If the status quo changes then is it wrong to assume the feelings of the UK people may have changed?

Yes, a majority of people voted either Tory, UKIP or Green - all of whom were offering a referendum.

Back on the scaremongering G20, has anyone actually said why there would be a shock to the global economy in the event of an out vote? The BBC article I've read doesn't mention it and it's a crucial difference between scaremongering and genuine concern.
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Because the idea of a referendum now is to decide whether to stay or go - if that decision is to stay we then elect and trust politicians to negotiate and establish our place in the EU going forward - exactly in the same was that if we came out we would elect and trust politicians to negotiate our place in the wider world. You can't be having a referendum every 5 years or nothing will ever be resolved and there will be continual mistrust of the UK economy in the world.
 
CityStu said:
I explained why they have a vested interest. Argue the point.

I believe that the vast majority campaigning in or out are doing it out of personal interest.

I am still yet to see any In campaigner give a list of benefits of being in the EU that would not be possible with us outside the EU.
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I am yet to meet a human being who doesn't act in self interest, though often they act in a believed self interest and not a real self interest

You haven't seen it because you honestly believe and say in your comments that everything could be fine outside the EU as you believe in it like a religion. Talk to a Devout Christian and everything is possible in heaven .
 
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bluethrunthru said:
Because the idea of a referendum now is to decide whether to stay or go - if that decision is to stay we then elect and trust politicians to negotiate and establish our place in the EU going forward - exactly in the same was that if we came out we would elect and trust politicians to negotiate our place in the wider world. You can't be having a referendum every 5 years or nothing will ever be resolved and there will be continual mistrust of the UK economy in the world.
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This is why this whole thing will harm Britain so much win or lose. A bitter bunch of losers will talk down the Uk and play the blame game for a decade to come and will try to exploit it. Hedge funds etc will fund uncertainty and more talent will probably leave (either way than stay) markets hate uncertainty and will have it for ten years.

Britain has fucked itself and I am not sure a vote either way can now change that fact.
 
Monkfish said:
The readers of this forum in no way reflect the general public, unless the public are now 95% male
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The readers of this forum reflect a very very biased demographic , in age , geography, etc this forum in no way reflects the overall population. Not only 95% male but also 99% City fans
 
BigJoe#1 said:
To take you up on your point about Rolls Royce. Surely it's all down to individual Businesses to asses their position. Take for example Aston Martin; why would they choose, at this moment of great uncertainty and huge risk (as the inner would have us believe) to invest so heavily if there was even a small chance it would fail? These people are paid a hell of a lot of money to make decisions, the right decisions. 750 jobs are to be created directly as a result of this investment - it kind of punches a hole in the speculative argument that it is a risk does it not?
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750 jobs in a 70m person economy and one CEO is like pissing off the Pembrokeshire coast and wondering if it will effect a cod fisherman in Newfoundland (probably a very poor underworked one)
 
CityStu said:
I think they would come here if there wasn't work though. By the end of this parliament our minimum wage will be £7.20 per hour which works out at just under €1,500 a month at full time. You would assume that cost of living would rise with that and thus the amount of benefits paid would also increase. Amongst current EU countries, that's a better wage than the average wage in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, Poland, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Portugal, Malta, Greece and Slovenia. In short, they could work an average amount in their home country or sit in their pants in the UK and get 'paid' the same. They may well take a few years of hardship (sharing a room and having very low living costs) to reap those rewards.

I do agree that most benefit bums are UK citizens, but I don't see why we should keep the possibility open for EU residents to make the most of our very generous welfare system.
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Fair points CityStu and yes the living wage could well be a powerful carrot! Leading on from this, I would really like to see this Country commit to developing the skills of our people. We need to be filling skills gaps.

I spend a lot of my working life helping organisations to grow their own work forces from the local community (as far as possible).

In some Sectors, we have a behavioural problem where recruiters enjoy the perks of travellibg throughout Europe and across the globe to recruit. If the same effort went in to identifying and developing local talented people then I still think fewer (low / semi-skilled) people would come here here because of reduced job prospects.
 
Eexamplue2 said:
750 jobs in a 70m person economy and one CEO is like pissing off the Pembrokeshire coast and wondering if it will effect a cod fisherman in Newfoundland (probably a very poor underworked one)
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Just one example to show the fear and scaremongering is not totally justified. perhaps the EU supporters can provide similar examples of firms closingup sand moving out? If and when theydo iI'm sure your analogy will lend equal weight to the argument, somewhere between very little and none!
 
EalingBlue2 said:
The readers of this forum reflect a very very biased demographic , in age , geography, etc this forum in no way reflects the overall population. Not only 95% male but also 99% City fans
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I don't understand this argument. Are City fans more Eurosceptic than the general population?
 
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