EU referendum

[Daz_Blue]

Why is there not a voting option on this poll for shake it all about about ?

 

[YPhrunts]

Project fear getting torn apart...



Note at 5.12 Neil states that in just three years alone the EU introduced 52,183 legal instruments. I guess we didn't have any powers to resist any of them. Isn't this what Boris is on about, that we have no power to determine our own destiny and are just getting pushed around by Brussels.

 

[EalingBlue2]

If thats the case then why do countries and blocs negotiate trade agreements with each other? Why aren't world markets swamped with goods and services made readily available by the producing countries? Why don't we already import cheaper cars from the US then? Is it because we are already part of a trading bloc called the EU that has trade agreements with other parts of the world? What if instead of buying fish off us the Spanish come and hoover up our fish stocks? They can't now because of the CFP - those rules won't apply to "our" waters if we come out. Whats to stop NZ flooding our open market with cheap lamb putting all our hill farmers out of business? All that cheap Brazilian beef coming our way damaging our beef cattle farmers? They don't now because of trade agreements with the EU which restrict volumes. It works both ways and we run the risk of in effect making ourselves a dumping ground for foreign goods - sure the initial bounce could be cheaper plentiful goods but that could come at the ruin of British industries as they are left vulnerable and unprotected.

What I don't understand from the outers or indeed many of the immersed is what britains economic future is.

Ultimate economic security comes from natural resources be that from the ground or from agricultural conditions. In both of these Britain either lacks the resources or they are grossly expensive and inefficient by global standards. So Britain has to import much and cannot export much in these core areas.

At the moment there is complex services, pharma etc but relative to the world education standards are slipping and the markets of Asia are inevitably catching and preparing to overtake in much of pharma and advanced technology .

Then there is finance the foundation of the British economy but an industry more exposed than any other to digital disruption and new technologies of hotels are exposed to air BnB and taxis to uber this is nothing compared to what is coming to the finance markets, the only thing that can stop it is huge government regulation and this "lack" of regulation is in many ways britains competitive advantage.

So Britain will go into many of the negotiations needing the imports to feed, heat and provide basic staples to its industries and it will be negotiating with markets that don't need the British exports in quite the same way and want to take over and compete , it could get brutal and that is why scaremongering is legitimate. It does though need to be factual and reasoned .

 

[cibaman]

Why is there not a voting option on this poll for shake it all about about ?

The Cabal-lero decided against it.

I do think there should be an "Undecided" option. I agree with most of this (except her comment about Cameron):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-of-the-EU-Im-proud-that-I-dont-know-yet.html

 

[BlueMojito]

Does anybody know whether there will be any tv debates to try and explain the pros/cons of staying in or leaving?

 

[YPhrunts]

Does anybody know whether there will be any tv debates to try and explain the pros/cons of staying in or leaving?

There was talk of the BBC hiring out Wembley stadium for a giant sort of 'debate/ discussion/ argy bargy' but it's a ludicrous idea as many people have lost trust in the BBC for impartiality. What would be a good thing is if a few national debates took place under proper debating rules at a series of leading universities.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Why is there not a voting option on this poll for shake it all about about ?

Im sure it'll all turn around, and that's what it's all about.

 

[YPhrunts]

What I don't understand from the outers or indeed many of the immersed is what britains economic future is.

Ultimate economic security comes from natural resources be that from the ground or from agricultural conditions. In both of these Britain either lacks the resources or they are grossly expensive and inefficient by global standards. So Britain has to import much and cannot export much in these core areas.

At the moment there is complex services, pharma etc but relative to the world education standards are slipping and the markets of Asia are inevitably catching and preparing to overtake in much of pharma and advanced technology .

Then there is finance the foundation of the British economy but an industry more exposed than any other to digital disruption and new technologies of hotels are exposed to air BnB and taxis to uber this is nothing compared to what is coming to the finance markets, the only thing that can stop it is huge government regulation and this "lack" of regulation is in many ways britains competitive advantage.

So Britain will go into many of the negotiations needing the imports to feed, heat and provide basic staples to its industries and it will be negotiating with markets that don't need the British exports in quite the same way and want to take over and compete , it could get brutal and that is why scaremongering is legitimate. It does though need to be factual and reasoned .

You are right to raise marketing in relation to food as a concern as I believe the Common Agricultural Policy is at the heart of why Europe does not want us to leave. However I take a lot of notice of farmer's views because they will be at the sharp end should we vote to leave. Farmers are known to be conservative with a capitol C but a lot of them are coming round to the attractions of leaving so the idea of cheap imported food having a negative impact on their business doesn't seem to register with them.
The fact that they would even consider leaving has surprised me more than anything else. You would have thought that a guarantee of subsidies would convince them that continuing inside the EU would be a good thing but no a lot of them are fed up with the manipulation of the market through subsidies that leaves them neither rich nor poor...just in a sort of socialist limbo...because any of the profits they might make from their produce is swallowed by the supermarkets who adjust what they are willing to pay for their produce depending on subsidies and they are getting twitchy about it. Even the Minister for farming has come out against remaining inside because he's sick of the avalanche of petty rules and the bureaucracy that goes with them. He wants to be free of it.

The nub of what makes the EU worthwhile in my view has been the Common Agricultural Policy and that was the reason for the Common Market to be formed in the first place so the fact that British farmers are even considering leaving it says volumes. Over half of what we pay to the EU goes to agriculture. We pay about twice as much into the CAP as we get out of it - I think it's c £ 4.5 bn we pay in and we receive about £ 2.25 bn. And there is enormous differences in how that money is distributed. Compare land mass alone and you will see that we get a really bum deal out of CAP. I'm not going to give you all 28 member states agricultural land usage but looking at the main players will give you an idea.

UK 9%. Italy 12%. Germany 14%. Spain 15%. France 22%.

No wonder the French get the most out of the CAP and we are basically subsidising French farmers and any body else that has a greater agricultural output than us. Our farmers are getting tired of it because it isn't a level playing field and no amount of negotiation has much effect...on anything! We are outvoted on most issues we don't agree with.
Not only do the proportion of subsidies alter from country to country there is also a huge disparity inside countries themselves. Most subsidies are alocated according to acreage. So a small tenant farmer will get a small subsidy and a large land owner will get a big subsidy. Now the Duke of Westminster who is a billionaire many times over is also a huge land owner as is our very own Queen and also the Church. The EU is giving those people vast amounts in handouts when they don't even need them. Now multiply that across the 27 other states who also have their stinking rich land owners and you can understand why our farmers are getting disillusioned by it all. The EU is facilitating an elite rich man's club and we ordinary tax payers are paying for it.
And the stay group want to continue with that under the slogan of 'better the devil you know blah blah"

I'm glad to read that a Tory MP sees it along the same lines.

Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin said "propaganda" was "being produced by other European governments at the request of the prime minister to try to scare people away from voting to leave".

He added: "We pay a great deal of money into the EU and it subsidises a great deal of French farming. Surprise surprise, they don't want us to leave the EU.

"But this is a choice for the British people, not for the French government, and actually we're being asked to believe all sorts of ludicrous things."

If I had made the statement it would have read, "We pay a great deal of money into the EU most of which goes to a select group of very rich people who own a lot of land by way of disproportionate subsidies. Surprise surprise, the French who receive most of those subsidies because they have the largest agricultural land mass don't want us to leave the EU.

But this should be a choice for the British people without interference from other European states, particularly the French who have been manipulated by Cameron to utter ludicrous statements in order to drive the fear factor to his advantage."



I'm on the fence until the last moment.
If I can be assured that the Scots will come to their senses and look two steps ahead and stop being blinded by their hatred for the English and vote to leave, then I might vote to leave too.
If they are going to dig in and vote to stay then I might have to join them to avoid a break up of the UK which will be worse that either staying in or getting out of the EU.

 

[hgblue]

What I don't understand from the outers or indeed many of the immersed is what britains economic future is.

Ultimate economic security comes from natural resources be that from the ground or from agricultural conditions. In both of these Britain either lacks the resources or they are grossly expensive and inefficient by global standards. So Britain has to import much and cannot export much in these core areas.

At the moment there is complex services, pharma etc but relative to the world education standards are slipping and the markets of Asia are inevitably catching and preparing to overtake in much of pharma and advanced technology .

Then there is finance the foundation of the British economy but an industry more exposed than any other to digital disruption and new technologies of hotels are exposed to air BnB and taxis to uber this is nothing compared to what is coming to the finance markets, the only thing that can stop it is huge government regulation and this "lack" of regulation is in many ways britains competitive advantage.

So Britain will go into many of the negotiations needing the imports to feed, heat and provide basic staples to its industries and it will be negotiating with markets that don't need the British exports in quite the same way and want to take over and compete , it could get brutal and that is why scaremongering is legitimate. It does though need to be factual and reasoned .

Maybe I'm missing something here? If you sell me more stuff than I sell you then it's in your best interests to have a free trade deal not mine. How many brand new German cars were sold in the UK last year? We're talking high end goods for which the German car manufacturers received full value in payment. They would be clamouring for a free trade deal with the UK the day after a leave vote.

 

[bluesoup]

What I am missing is, whilst I acknowledge we could do our own trade deals etc. we are so tangled up in EU policy and law (that we were part of creating) that to unravel it will require people to do this work. We know trade deals can take years in the making and in some places, they are very complex negotiations to make. Just to get a mayor for Manchester has taken approx two years in parliament to pass the bill! Imagine passing new bills as a result of coming out of the legal framework in the EU!

I'm also grappling the notion that we will need to employ more government ministers, lawyers, civil servants and businesses people to achieve this. Thus creating a possible hefty bill - for us normal tax paying people to fund. We're already burdened with high taxes and face more austerity over the next 5 years so, does austerity carry on longer and for what? A trade deal that ends up at the same level as we already have now... As for our legal system do we employ more lawyers to help change what we have that is so bad according to the outers!

Moving onto immigration, let's sort out the non EU migration which we have total control of and is higher Before we moan about Europeans coming here!

 

[hgblue]

What I am missing is, whilst I acknowledge we could do our own trade deals etc. we are so tangled up in EU policy and law (that we were part of creating) that to unravel it will require people to do this work. We know trade deals can take years in the making and in some places, they are very complex negotiations to make. Just to get a mayor for Manchester has taken approx two years in parliament to pass the bill! Imagine passing new bills as a result of coming out of the legal framework in the EU!

I'm also grappling the notion that we will need to employ more government ministers, lawyers, civil servants and businesses people to achieve this. Thus creating a possible hefty bill - for us normal tax paying people to fund. We're already burdened with high taxes and face more austerity over the next 5 years so, does austerity carry on longer and for what? A trade deal that ends up at the same level as we already have now... As for our legal system do we employ more lawyers to help change what we have that is so bad according to the outers!

Moving onto immigration, let's sort out the non EU migration which we have total control of and is higher Before we moan about Europeans coming here!

Well we would have 8.5 billion pounds a year burning a hole in our pockets. The EU represents 15% of our gdp and falling but accounts for 100% of the regulations that our businesses are lumbered with. The day after a leave vote we would be free to negotiate free trade deals with the growing market that is the rest of the planet, and over time we can remove some of the unnecessary red tape and make our businesses more competitive. This would be removing costs not adding them, and would be hugely beneficial to our economy, On immigration, we can put in place a level playing field for all migrants regardless of their location and admit people based on their skills, which would be another net benefit for the economy.

 

[bluesoup]

Hgblue that's a very good outer reply. Question for you before I go get ready for the match. where is the remaining 85% GDP made up from?

 

[hgblue]

Hgblue that's a very good outer reply. Question for you before I go get ready for the match. where is the remaining 85% GDP made up from?

The majority of economic activity is domestic and the rest is non EU, but the point is we have a surplus in non EU trade and this trade is growing, and a massive trade deficit with the EU and this trade is in decline, yet the regulations that we are burdened with come from the EU. This doesn't make sense to me.

 

[blueinsa]

Might have already been posted and debated but we are currently sending around £670M a year to the EU from the NHS budget to cover costs of treatments abroad for our citizens whilst we are getting around £50m a year back whilst our NHS treats the rests of the EU citizens needing treatment here.

Another reason to vote out.

 

[Blue Haze]

Eurosceptics should visit war graves, says Jean-Claude Juncker

David Cameron was 'so glad' that I sorted his 'self-induced problem', claims European Commission president

Eurosceptics should visit a military cemetery, Jean-Claude Juncker said yesterday, as he warned that the “enormous stupidity” of two world wars could return to Europe.

The president of the European Commission appeared to mock David Cameron’s renegotiation, saying the Prime Minister was grateful for his aid in resolving his “self-induced problem”.

“Peace is never a sure thing. Anyone who thinks that peace is set in eternity is fundamentally wrong. And there is war again in Europe,” Mr Juncker said, referring to conflict in Ukraine.

He warned that the refugee crisis poses a risk to the “highly sensitive” Balkans follows conflicts in Kosovo and Bosnia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...isit-war-graves-says-Jean-Claude-Juncker.html


So guys, it's the EU or else you get the Nazis. Your choice.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

The majority of economic activity is domestic and the rest is non EU, but the point is we have a surplus in non EU trade and this trade is growing, and a massive trade deficit with the EU and this trade is in decline, yet the regulations that we are burdened with come from the EU. This doesn't make sense to me.

It's quite simple, we want to buy more good and services from te rest of the EU ten they wish to buy off us. Membership of the EU is largely irrelevant to this.

Your point that 100 percent of our regulations comes from the EU is far fetched. For example, I work in the Health Sectir where much of your so called red tape is set by professional bodies and domestic regulators.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Tim.
Where we buy from is currently dictated by our membership. The EU is a cartel which through import regulations makes it necessary for us to buy internally. Once free from the cartel we can choose to buy from anywhere we please. It put's the EU in competition with the rest of the world for our business. That in itself will be good for the UK and bad for the EU. This is why they want us to stay in.

 

[malg]

Eurosceptics should visit war graves, says Jean-Claude Juncker

David Cameron was 'so glad' that I sorted his 'self-induced problem', claims European Commission president

Eurosceptics should visit a military cemetery, Jean-Claude Juncker said yesterday, as he warned that the “enormous stupidity” of two world wars could return to Europe.

The president of the European Commission appeared to mock David Cameron’s renegotiation, saying the Prime Minister was grateful for his aid in resolving his “self-induced problem”.

“Peace is never a sure thing. Anyone who thinks that peace is set in eternity is fundamentally wrong. And there is war again in Europe,” Mr Juncker said, referring to conflict in Ukraine.

He warned that the refugee crisis poses a risk to the “highly sensitive” Balkans follows conflicts in Kosovo and Bosnia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...isit-war-graves-says-Jean-Claude-Juncker.html


So guys, it's the EU or else you get the Nazis. Your choice.

So, if we vote 'out' the European Union are going to invade! This guy's a ****!

 

[EalingBlue2]

Maybe I'm missing something here? If you sell me more stuff than I sell you then it's in your best interests to have a free trade deal not mine. How many brand new German cars were sold in the UK last year? We're talking high end goods for which the German car manufacturers received full value in payment. They would be clamouring for a free trade deal with the UK the day after a leave vote.

Ultimately yes people will want deals, but they will have the power to negotiate a better deal for them than us and in the medium term that will undermine all our exports the vast majority of which are far more at risk to globalisation , technology and digital disruption than the items we mainly have to import. For example if we stopped trading we would lose energy , transport , food. If people stoppedd trading with us they would lose a few bob. Us desperately needing imports is a very good reason for people to trade with us but on their terms. True tariff free free trade benefits the developing world, the price competitive countries and those with natural resources and market power. Also we will in the main be negotiating with trading blocs as everyone else in the world realises this is critical and is building strength just as the older English population wants to weaken the UK

 

[EalingBlue2]

So, if we vote 'out' the European Union are going to invade! This guy's a ****!

Everyone should visit the war graves, a sober sober reminder of what a divided competing Europe did to humanity for many many centuries.