EU referendum

[Ancient Citizen]

Again, 'Bringing in more than they take out' only applies to skilled workers. The EU forces us to accept anyone from within it.

 

[Moriati]

Monday night Ankara asked for an extra three billion euros ($3.3 bn) that it says it needs to curb the flow of people fleeing to the continent.
The money would be in addition to same sum already pledged by the EU under a deal made in November 2015.
Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu stunned his 28 EU counterparts in Brussels when he suddenly asked for an extra 3 billion euros (US$3.3 billion) in aid and visa-free travel for Turks to the bloc by June.
British taxpayers will pay £500 million in aid, up from an initial £250 million agreed in October as EU leaders acceded to Turkey’s surprise demand to double its pay outs to €6 billion (£4.6 billion) by the end of 2018. In a basket of sweeteners handed to Ahmet Davutoglu, the Turkish prime minister, five new chapters of the long-running talks on Turkey’s accession to the EU will be opened.
And from June, 77 million Turks will be able to access to the EU’s Schengen zone for 90 days without a visa under a significant relaxation of the rules.
-

 

[CityStu]

Yep, they bring in more than they take out!.

If you want more details Then google to try to find what your looking for. Create a spread sheet with all the bits your want to try to cost and search for each bit to see if you can make a total. I've done it plenty of times in the past when discussing things on forums.

Welfare isn't the only way you take out of the system though. There's health, education, transport etc. that they should also be contributing to through taxes.

I think I've seen figures around saying you become a net contributor at around a £30-35k salary. I'd like to know what proportion of EU immigrants aren't at that benchmark.

You could also overlay their usage compared to the average but it shouldn't vary too much. There will be fewer older immigrants taking more from the NHS but they are more likely to have more children.

 

[grunge]

Welfare isn't the only way you take out of the system though. There's health, education, transport etc. that they should also be contributing to through taxes.

Health - if they are are paying NI then why shouldn't they get health cover like everyone else?
Education - Only if they bring a family with them that has kids, the single adult migrants are a fully grown, educated person with zero education outlay to the country, which is a bonus.
Transport - Not sure what your point is with this one? if they are using the roads they are paying fuel duty, road tax etc, if they are using public transport they are paying for the service like everyone else.

I think I've seen figures around saying you become a net contributor at around a £30-35k salary. I'd like to know what proportion of EU immigrants aren't at that benchmark.

Would be interesting to see that info as I dont know many people on more than that.

Either way, Migration is a small part of the whole Argument, or at least it should only be a small part of it. If the media hadn't blown it out of proportion over the last few years it wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[grunge]

Again, 'Bringing in more than they take out' only applies to skilled workers. The EU forces us to accept anyone from within it.

No, It doesn't. the study covers ALL EU Immigrants but the balance is that there are more skilled ones and they bring in more than they take out, even with those "low skill" ones you are talking about. but then if they manage to fund getting here, find places to live, find jobs and manage to get by in a country that doesnt speak there native language then I would suggest there skills are a lot higher than you give them credit for.

 

[Monkfish]

I think I've seen figures around saying you become a net contributor at around a £30-35k salary. I'd like to know what proportion of EU immigrants aren't at that benchmark.

I think it may be a lot higher than that, especially for those who have popped out some kids, but again its a slightly false figure - the director of a multinational paying in £££ is only paid £££ because of the work of his minions, no minions, no £££. Everything is linked and its easy to mislead with figures to back up your agenda and preconceptions

 

[Monkfish]

Either way, Migration is a small part of the whole Argument, or at least it should only be a small part of it. If the media hadn't blown it out of proportion over the last few years it wouldn't be an issue at all.

Radio4 news this morning, 12 minutes of news and only one story (NPower jobs losses) not immigrant/refugee related

 

[BimboBob]

How do unskilled immigrants help the UK economy?
Selected, skilled workers certainly do, we have plenty of home grown unskilled workers out of work.
If they do help the UK economy, we must immediately accept anyone and everyone, let's start with around an extra 50 million,
then we'd all be living the life of Reilly.

We do have plenty of unskilled workers out of work in this country but from past experience a lot of them can't be bothered to work. Over the years we have had influxes from different European countries, be they Polish, Lithuanian etc etc and without exception they have all come here to work, and work hard. Sure in the beginning a lot of the Polish earned money was being sent home but now those original unskilled workers are settled, have mortgages and pay taxes. In all this time I have employed English workers as well and they seem to be the ones who take days off sick, don't want to do overtime and generally piss about. I know this is a big generalisation but this is what I have witnessed over the last 15 years.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

No, It doesn't. the study covers ALL EU Immigrants but the balance is that there are more skilled ones and they bring in more than they take out, even with those "low skill" ones you are talking about. but then if they manage to fund getting here, find places to live, find jobs and manage to get by in a country that doesnt speak there native language then I would suggest there skills are a lot higher than you give them credit for.

Yes it does. Anyone from the EU, be they skilled or not can work and live here. The upshot is that hundreds of thousands of people
from the poorer parts of the EU coming here, for obvious reasons. We were repeatedly told that Bulgarian and Romanian numbers would be low,
with the usual suspects screaming about only a few thousand would bother, check out the actual numbers, the screamers were wrong again.
Nobody with any sense wants a complete immigration ban, folk with skills we need would be encouraged, within the EU we have no control over that.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

We do have plenty of unskilled workers out of work in this country but from past experience a lot of them can't be bothered to work. Over the years we have had influxes from different European countries, be they Polish, Lithuanian etc etc and without exception they have all come here to work, and work hard. Sure in the beginning a lot of the Polish earned money was being sent home but now those original unskilled workers are settled, have mortgages and pay taxes. In all this time I have employed English workers as well and they seem to be the ones who take days off sick, don't want to do overtime and generally piss about. I know this is a big generalisation but this is what I have witnessed over the last 15 years.

Yep, this is true, I've seen at first hand the inherent laziness of native 'workers' compared to many of the immigrants you describe.
This is the fault of governments here refusing to make these idle tossers work by showering them with benefits, if they've no money,
this attitude would stop. Progress is being made by reforms, many around me have now reluctantly started in work, blaming Tory bastards for
their humiliation, but more needs to be done, as there are still plenty of young layabouts clinging on.

 

[EalingBlue2]

You forgot London in that list, without us going in with the Americans and destroying Iraq this refugee problem wouldn't exist.

I agree us and the French have been very forthcoming in worsening the situation and causing so much unsettlement. Ironically it was us the US and the French who wrote the constitution for Germany that in a major way led to Germany opening its borders last year .
We do that and then exit blaming countries like Greece and Germany for the migrants and for their own constitution

 

[EalingBlue2]

Yep, this is true, I've seen at first hand the inherent laziness of native 'workers' compared to many of the immigrants you describe.
This is the fault of governments here refusing to make these idle tossers work by showering them with benefits, if they've no money,
this attitude would stop. Progress is being made by reforms, many around me have now reluctantly started in work, blaming Tory bastards for
their humiliation, but more needs to be done, as there are still plenty of young layabouts clinging on.

Welfare is the cheapest form of dealing with the poor and underclasses. Education , jobs, training, etc cost far more so it is easier to chuck out benefits and then blame them for being lazy.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Welfare is the cheapest form of dealing with the poor and underclasses. Education , jobs, training, etc cost far more so it is easier to chuck ou hat benefits and then blame them for being lazy.

Many folk are unskilled, they need no further education, they've had one, the fact is that not everyone has academic ability,
so unskilled jobs is where they must be directed to. As there are millions of foreigners here doing those jobs, they must be available,
so there is no excuse, apart from ill health or disability. It is better to restrict benefits to force these people into work, which is very slowly happening.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Many folk are unskilled, they need no further education, they've had one, the fact is that not everyone has academic ability,
so unskilled jobs is where they must be directed to. As there are millions of foreigners here doing those jobs, they must be available,
so there is no excuse, apart from ill health or disability. It is better to restrict benefits to force these people into work, which is very slowly happening.

Theoretically I agree but history and reality shows a good proportion of these people don't get forced into work they get forced into crime, ill health , homelessness and then end up costing the tax payer far more. That's the reason governments do what they do , welfare is often the cheapest even if it is not right. Welfare was set up by Atlee for a very moral purpose but it has been a cheap political tool for many governments since

 

[blueonblue]

Many folk are unskilled, they need no further education, they've had one, the fact is that not everyone has academic ability,
so unskilled jobs is where they must be directed to. As there are millions of foreigners here doing those jobs, they must be available,
so there is no excuse, apart from ill health or disability. It is better to restrict benefits to force these people into work, which is very slowly happening.

Yet you contradict your very well made point by stating that their are "Millions of foreigners here doing those jobs", and thats the real bug bare for many people.

What are "Our" unskilled to do when cheap migrant labour is filling those jobs ?, not only are they not earning to contribute tax & ni, but are a further drain on the benefit system, you can not force them into work when there is none, without the flood of cheap migrant labour these jobs would be available, THEN the job centers could sent claimants to available jobs and if they did not want to take them cut the benefits.

Most people have had to do jobs they hated just to put food on the table, its a great motivator to improve your lot by learning or finding a better way to earn a living.

The idiots that cry "Racism and little Englander" are an affront to common sense, any finite resource is effected by the numbers.

 

[Monkfish]

The idiots that cry "Racism and little Englander" are an affront to common sense, any finite resource is effected by the numbers.

After reading your last few posts I am assuming that you are desperate for somebody to call you racist? Its not happening but you keep going on about it

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Yet you contradict your very well made point by stating that their are "Millions of foreigners here doing those jobs", and thats the real bug bare for many people.

What are "Our" unskilled to do when cheap migrant labour is filling those jobs ?, not only are they not earning to contribute tax & ni, but are a further drain on the benefit system, you can not force them into work when there is none, without the flood of cheap migrant labour these jobs would be available, THEN the job centers could sent claimants to available jobs and if they did not want to take them cut the benefits.

Most people have had to do jobs they hated just to put food on the table, its a great motivator to improve your lot by learning or finding a better way to earn a living.

The idiots that cry "Racism and little Englander" are an affront to common sense, any finite resource is effected by the numbers.

Yes, these are all valid points, whilst most agree migrants are not, in the main, claiming billions in benefits, the fact is we all know decent
people unable to get jobs at the basic pay level, and the sneering of the intellectual left that says they're too thick or lazy to beat similar unskilled
immigrants to these jobs is unhelpful, to say the least. Restrictions on benefits to these people
is of course wrong in these circumstances.

 

[grunge]

Yes, these are all valid points, whilst most agree migrants are not, in the main, claiming billions in benefits, the fact is we all know decent
people unable to get jobs at the basic pay level, and the sneering of the intellectual left that says they're too thick or lazy to beat similar unskilled
immigrants to these jobs is unhelpful, to say the least.

out of curiosity, what do you class as unskilled? In the industry im in a lot of the "unskilled" immigrants are hired because they are multi lingual, which is a desired skill in its own right.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

out of curiosity, what do you class as unskilled? In the industry im in a lot of the "unskilled" immigrants are hired because they are multi lingual, which is a desired skill in its own right.

When I left grammar school, many of my mates went to the local secondary modern, some became apprentices, joiners, plumbers etc;
although many went into the local factories unskilled and did repetitive jobs that required little training. These jobs have now vanished
to be replaced by supermarkets, warehousing, retailing, and similar industries. It is these jobs that many immigrants have filled, and made unskilled work harder
to find, (Bimbo Bob's post about lazy Brits does have resonance too). I've no idea what your industry is, but if it calls for linguistic skills, then I've no
problem with your company employing migrants, there is obviously a shortage of home grown workers with such skills; that is the point, we have no need to
import workers with no skills whatsoever.

 

[BimboBob]

When I left grammar school, many of my mates went to the local secondary modern, some became apprentices, joiners, plumbers etc;
although many went into the local factories unskilled and did repetitive jobs that required little training. These jobs have now vanished
to be replaced by supermarkets, warehousing, retailing, and similar industries. It is these jobs that many immigrants have filled, and made unskilled work harder
to find, (Bimbo Bob's post about lazy Brits does have resonance too). I've no idea what your industry is, but if it calls for linguistic skills, then I've no
problem with your company employing migrants, there is obviously a shortage of home grown workers with such skills; that is the point, we have no need to
import workers with no skills whatsoever.

I think he's alluding to the fact that most migrants can speak 2 languages. Their own and English. That skill alone stands them in good stead in the job market where a lot of young men born and bred here can hardly string a sentence together.