EU referendum

[grunge]

Why would we go "The Norway route". We have almost nothing in common with Norway when it comes to your trade relation with EU nations.

And just to re-emphasise the point. We pay something close to 8 billion net to have those EU stickers and signs put up!

the Norwegian route is one of the few that had been mentioned as a possibility, so I used it as an example.

I've not got a clue which way the gov would take it

 

[hgblue]

They will already know the preferred route they want to go.

They've already said they want to put a free trade agreement in place with the EU.

 

[cibaman]

How can the Leave side tell you for definite what the trading relationship will be like before the negotiations have taken place?

They wouldn't even if they could. They're desperate to maintain the illusion that the UK will be able to escape from any commitments or obligations to the EU and still be given a free trade agreement. No contribution to the EU budget, no need to comply with any directives, especially the free movement of labour, but still trade as before.

The problem for the Brexiters is that they cant have any sensible debate before the vote about alternative forms of UK - EU relationship because they would have to accept that some form compromise would be required. And there's no chance of the various Leave groups agreeing on what the red lines would be (other than that everything would be a red line).

The risk is that if we vote Leave it would then take several months of internal squabbling before they could agree on a mandate for the negotiators to open negotiations. All that will happen is that Boris will ask for a free trade agreement with no strings attached, be politely told by Merkel to get serious, and then there will be a Mexican stand off until the second referendum.

 

[hgblue]

They wouldn't even if they could. They're desperate to maintain the illusion that the UK will be able to escape from any commitments or obligations to the EU and still be given a free trade agreement. No contribution to the EU budget, no need to comply with any directives, especially the free movement of labour, but still trade as before.

The problem for the Brexiters is that they cant have any sensible debate before the vote about alternative forms of UK - EU relationship because they would have to accept that some form compromise would be required. And there's no chance of the various Leave groups agreeing on what the red lines would be (other than that everything would be a red line).

The risk is that if we vote Leave it would then take several months of internal squabbling before they could agree on a mandate for the negotiators to open negotiations. All that will happen is that Boris will ask for a free trade agreement with no strings attached, be politely told by Merkel to get serious, and then there will be a Mexican stand off until the second referendum.

The other countries have chosen a path of political and monetary union/free movement of labour. Presumably because they think these things are a good idea. So if not being part of this project is seen as being such a bad idea by the others then we should be able to respectfully decline to be part of it without this causing any problems. Unless of course they know that a UK freed from the chains of excessive regulation and costly directives would prosper?

 

[grunge]

They've already said they want to put a free trade agreement in place with the EU.

Ta, don't suppose you have any links? I couldn't find anything.

The problem with it is we would be paying a lot into the EU for a free trade agreement.

These payments are usually based on a per capita system, if the figure I read of £700m per year for a Swiss deal is accurate ( quite a old figure with no backup ) the uk will end up paying about 5bn a year, and will still have to obey the EU laws and have no emps at the table. That's assuming we could get a similar deal, Bit of guess work in there due to no hard facts.

Switzerland has 27 other free trade agreements with other counties too.

 

[blueish swede]

There will not be a Norway route or a Swiss option. The UK will not be part of the EEA if it leaves the EU.
This has been made absolutely clear by the EU and many member states.
It's fairy tale central, the Brexit HQ :-)

 

[EalingBlue2]

To those comparing the UK government's ideals to those of the EU, what happens if the EU lurches to the right and then doesn't agree with your ideals? It is a dictatorship and you're only happy with the current dictator.

Europe hasn't had governance more right wing than the current Tory government since the early 40's, I reckon most are worried about the lurch to the right in the UK tbh and that is a little more pressing. It is not a dictatorship in the slightest it has branches selected by vote, by democratically elected leaders etc.

Such exaggeration is bordering on a lie

 

[EalingBlue2]

There will not be a Norway route or a Swiss option. The UK will not be part of the EEA if it leaves the EU.
This has been made absolutely clear by the EU and many member states.
It's fairy tale central, the Brexit HQ :-)

The U.K. Will never be a Switzerland or Norway it does not have the incredibly valuable neutrality of Switzerland built over a very long time and it has a fraction of the money and natural resources per head Norway does. Also people like even Switzerland globally a lot more than the UK politically (in terms of governments)

 

[EalingBlue2]

But then if we exit and go the Norway route we end up paying to be part of the trading block and getting no rebate at all ( just fact checking myself on this due to conflicting info )

Which brings me back to something I said earlier that to have an informed vote we need to know what direction we would take on exiting.

And I don't think they pocket it, it goes to grants to smaller less prolific countries in the EU that need the cash more.

Not one outer is able to Ren give a hint as to what Britains economic future is, what will bring the wealth , the population, what's the strategy. There isn't one this is people lashing out as they always do looking for someone to blame when times are hard. Thankfully given Britains proclivity for moderation it is voting out of a club and not Jack boots and some of the nonsense we see elsewhere.

Won't solve any of the issues though , nor will staying in that would require long term intelligent and brave political leadership. Sadly when you can't manage one of the three that's not very good

 

[SWP's back]

There will not be a Norway route or a Swiss option. The UK will not be part of the EEA if it leaves the EU.
This has been made absolutely clear by the EU and many member states.
It's fairy tale central, the Brexit HQ :-)

Sure. :-)

I bet you're awesome at negotiations.

 

[SWP's back]

Not one outer is able to Ren give a hint as to what Britains economic future is, what will bring the wealth , the population, what's the strategy. There isn't one this is people lashing out as they always do looking for someone to blame when times are hard. Thankfully given Britains proclivity for moderation it is voting out of a club and not Jack boots and some of the nonsense we see elsewhere.

Won't solve any of the issues though , nor will staying in that would require long term intelligent and brave political leadership. Sadly when you can't manage one of the three that's not very good

And no inner has put together a cogent positive set of reasons for staying in. You're like a group of scared old women worrying about ever going outside in case something bad happens, despite the house you're in being on fire.

And the more you repeat ad nauseum, the more the BM vote increases towards the out vote.

Thank fuck you're not running the IN campaign.

 

[malg]

The fact that we've got more 'outers', does that mean that the Board is full of old people?

 

[Helmet Cole]

Iirc the outers have actually quoted figures in terms of how much membership costs us (don't know if they are accurate) whereas the in lobby just seem to be trying to scaremonger with veiled threats as to the consequences of exit without any costed figures. This is probably a smart move. If they can't form a coherent argument, then sowing fear and confusion will herd the undecided into voting to maintain the status quo. The same sleight of hand was used in the referendum on electoral reform.

 

[BigJoe#1]

And no inner has put together a cogent positive set of reasons for staying in. You're like a group of scared old women worrying about ever going outside in case something bad happens, despite the house you're in being on fire.

And the more you repeat ad nauseum, the more the BM vote increases towards the out vote.

Thank fuck you're not running the IN campaign.

Correct. No one in the IN camp can tell us how things are going to look when Turkey join, how we will cope with further political integration, or if Cameron gets his own way how we will be on the outside of the inside by being out of all the key decision making mechanisms.

I am amazed how people who decide not to live in this country can be so opinionated and dead set against us leaving the EU when they themselves have left the UK, it just doesn't tally for me. Perhaps there will be some explanation to help me begin to give credibility to the arguements presented.

 

[hgblue]

Ta, don't suppose you have any links? I couldn't find anything.

The problem with it is we would be paying a lot into the EU for a free trade agreement.

These payments are usually based on a per capita system, if the figure I read of £700m per year for a Swiss deal is accurate ( quite a old figure with no backup ) the uk will end up paying about 5bn a year, and will still have to obey the EU laws and have no emps at the table. That's assuming we could get a similar deal, Bit of guess work in there due to no hard facts.

Switzerland has 27 other free trade agreements with other counties too.

You don't seriously expect us to pay 5 billion pounds for the right to have the EU sell us 60 billion pounds more stuff than we sell them do you?

 

[grunge]

you really are scraping the barrel there

Ironically, even tho I was typing in jest, it's actually true, our rebate comes from the other eu countries.

Here's a breakdown of it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4721307.stm

 

[grunge]

You don't seriously expect us to pay 5 billion pounds for the right to have the EU sell us 60 billion pounds more stuff than we sell them do you?

I expect we would have to pay to join the market the same as every other country does. To suggest other wise is pie in the sky hope.

 

[BigJoe#1]

I expect we would have to pay to join the market the same as every other country does. To suggest other wise is pie in the sky hope.

....and if we didn't pay?

 

[SWP's back]

....and if we didn't pay?

They'd not sell us anything. Obviously..... Erm

 

[EalingBlue2]

And no inner has put together a cogent positive set of reasons for staying in. You're like a group of scared old women worrying about ever going outside in case something bad happens, despite the house you're in being on fire.

And the more you repeat ad nauseum, the more the BM vote increases towards the out vote.

Thank fuck you're not running the IN campaign.

Firstly most of the old women I know have got more balls than a whole cabal of today's young men and unlike you I don't see women as some sort of frightened timid creatures. So I'll take that as a complement as I infer you are suggesting they are trying to put out the fire and save those inside rather than running away. So that's probably one of your best analogies yet. The house is on fire and the Brexit vote is an argument l upstairs on how to get out rather than actually doing something about the fire, with every second spend arguing damaging.

You haven't even attempted to answer any of the simple questions put to you by me or Roamin or others which suggests your el insecurity of trying to appear a keyboard Aristotle is more important to you than attempting to make a cogent and rational case for Britain's economic future and risking actually putting an idea out there.

Britain is like Kodak at the moment and needs leadership not wasted time and money arguing about a nothing