EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

....and if we didn't pay?

If you don't pay you don't play

And no inner has put together a cogent positive set of reasons for staying in. You're like a group of scared old women worrying about ever going outside in case something bad happens, despite the house you're in being on fire.

And the more you repeat ad nauseum, the more the BM vote increases towards the out vote.

Thank fuck you're not running the IN campaign.

If I was running things there would be no campaign we would be spending time looking for real solutions to real problems . This exercise in blame to avoid hard discussions is doing a huge disservice to everyone. Little and Large may as well be running the campaigns they are both jokes

 

[blueonblue]

If I was running things there would be no campaign we would be spending time looking for real solutions to real problems .

The solutions to the real problems facing this country are all "Not allowed" while we remain in the EU.

The problem of a shortage of jobs and wages/working conditions being undermined by floods of cheap migrant labour can not be properly addressed without control of our own borders, nor can any real attempt to tackle the huge benefit bill we pay out every year to our own people sat on the dole.
The Heath/education systems are near to breaking point for the same reason as above, nor can a way out be planned when you have no idea how many people will arrive at any given time.

Shortage of housing same again, you can hold your breath till your blue in the face but it will not change the reality.

We can never find any solutions while we do not have sovereignty over our own destiny.

 

[lancs blue]

The solutions to the real problems facing this country are all "Not allowed" while we remain in the EU.

The problem of a shortage of jobs and wages/working conditions being undermined by floods of cheap migrant labour can not be properly addressed without control of our own borders, nor can any real attempt to tackle the huge benefit bill we pay out every year to our own people sat on the dole.
The Heath/education systems are near to breaking point for the same reason as above, nor can a way out be planned when you have no idea how many people will arrive at any given time.

Shortage of housing same again, you can hold your breath till your blue in the face but it will not change the reality.

We can never find any solutions while we do not have sovereignty over our own destiny.

Long term we need MORE migrants not fewer, because of the age demographics in the indigenous population. In fact even in the short term the NHS has just "discovered" that it over-estimated staff numbers by 70,000 so even with all the immigrants who work in it the NHS is chronically understaffed. Where are the queues of local people trying to fill these posts??

 

[EalingBlue2]

The solutions to the real problems facing this country are all "Not allowed" while we remain in the EU.

The problem of a shortage of jobs and wages/working conditions being undermined by floods of cheap migrant labour can not be properly addressed without control of our own borders, nor can any real attempt to tackle the huge benefit bill we pay out every year to our own people sat on the dole.
The Heath/education systems are near to breaking point for the same reason as above, nor can a way out be planned when you have no idea how many people will arrive at any given time.

Shortage of housing same again, you can hold your breath till your blue in the face but it will not change the reality.

We can never find any solutions while we do not have sovereignty over our own destiny.

Respect for answering! Though I see the problem differently. You are very much talking about the symptoms though in my view not the core. I agree about the creaking services but would actually not blame immigration I would blame consumerism. Too many people today believe in consuming today rather than adequately dealing with the future and governments are happy to propagate a Ponzi scheme rather than actually deal with it.

Studies show immigration holding in check the ageing population, providing GDP growth and holding together funding of NHS and education. Without immigration growth would be gone in the economy and the demographics would kill so stopping immigration is not a solution. The only real solution is to either agree as a country that universal healthcare and education is history (which would be dreadful in my eyes) or accept as a country that a few sports cars, DVD players etc are going to have to be sacrificed to get the revenue in that can pay for the exponentially increasing cost of age. Immigration has been holding things together short term and has been used cynically and dishonestly by governments. To actually try and change people's expectations and short term gratification for the long term good of society though is one of the hardest things to do. It is very easy to get a person to blame someone else for their problems it is very hard to get them to accept their expectations are part of the issue.

I guess my question was almost more broad, long term what is Britain going to do better and cheaper than anyone else so that Britain can grow economically and find the ageing growing population and find a niche in the world. None of the parties have any idea, Tories think destroying socialised medicine and taking away the rights and protections of the population is an answer (it isn't), labour thinks going back in time to a different world demographically is the answer and it isn't . Both sides of politics are looking only for people to blame be that Europe or dole bludgers , immigrants , big business or fat bankers and all of it is a pathetic attempt at a blame game. Seems to me the whole in out vote is much the same.

What is needed is a really honest discussion of what the British populations collective view is on what is expected for education, health and welfare and what tax etc has to be paid to it for that. A far more worthy and important referenda than Europe and far more impactful. Then some areas of future long term competitive advantage and strategy need to be identified and policy tailored towards them, education boosted to support them, investment tailored towards them etc

Political Short termism is destroying much of the west and was the whole drive behind the economic collapse and is a big part, along with young growing populations especially in the middle class as to why Asia is the growth engine of the world

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Out and fuck of Turkey !
Bosporus my arse !

 

[blueonblue]

You constantly ignore the overwhelming difference between immigration, which can be a good thing IF you can bring in the people that will improve things, and unfettered floods of financial migrants that just add to the already existing problems.
We unfortunately already have plenty of unskilled workers, to allow in more who will undercut wages while pushing up the benefits bill to pay out dole money is madness.

We are not dependent on the EU for jobs or anything else, they only buy a small % of what we make yet want to dictate every thing from laws to how we empty the f*cking bins, we buy more from them an pay more than world market price for the privilege.

The nine BILLION or so we save every year not being part of their little gang invested into British industry & infrastructure would transform this country, the politicians will be forced into this by a public long sick to the back teeth of there antics.

We regain our fishing grounds, control of our agriculture, justice system, borders , an we get to decide how we do things like empty the f*cking bins.

The EU is not just building up trouble for the very near future, it IS the ponzi scheme as Greece already found out, you ask about the uncertainty of exit, I say there is far more uncertainty staying tied into this mess, Hungary & Austria have defied the EU an closed their border, Poland has elected a right wing government who are refusing to take any migrants, meanwhile the EU do a deal of paying Turkey six billion euro`s an speeding up full integration into the EU for them in return for blocking a route for migrant ( Opening the door for 77million Turks).

 

[EalingBlue2]

You constantly ignore the overwhelming difference between immigration, which can be a good thing IF you can bring in the people that will improve things, and unfettered floods of financial migrants that just add to the already existing problems.
We unfortunately already have plenty of unskilled workers, to allow in more who will undercut wages while pushing up the benefits bill to pay out dole money is madness.

We are not dependent on the EU for jobs or anything else, they only buy a small % of what we make yet want to dictate every thing from laws to how we empty the f*cking bins, we buy more from them an pay more than world market price for the privilege.

The nine BILLION or so we save every year not being part of their little gang invested into British industry & infrastructure would transform this country, the politicians will be forced into this by a public long sick to the back teeth of there antics.

We regain our fishing grounds, control of our agriculture, justice system, borders , an we get to decide how we do things like empty the f*cking bins.

The EU is not just building up trouble for the very near future, it IS the ponzi scheme as Greece already found out, you ask about the uncertainty of exit, I say there is far more uncertainty staying tied into this mess, Hungary & Austria have defied the EU an closed their border, Poland has elected a right wing government who are refusing to take any migrants, meanwhile the EU do a deal of paying Turkey six billion euro`s an speeding up full integration into the EU for them in return for blocking a route for migrant ( Opening the door for 77million Turks).

The whole of the western world is a Ponzi scheme, the UK has a huge Ponzi scheme behind it and no idea or strategy to get out. In European terms there are many much worse but mainly because they have higher expectations of what the state should provide.

So we regain fishing grounds with no fish, we regain agriculture with high input costs that can't globally compete? We get out justice system back - to do What reduce our human rights, take away protection of workers and allow us to become even more exploited than today?

Where I do agree is Turkey shouldn't be in the EU and ideally not in NATO with the current regime but that's a separate issue.

I also think to try and blame the EU for this immigration situation is a bloody cheek. Britain and France hold nearly all the responsibility European wise for the messes in the Middle East, North Africa, Aghanistan etc. The idea that we along with The US and France can help absolutely screw up large chunks of the world and then leave the problems for other countries like Greece who had nothing to do with it is appalling. It is the ultimate 21st century behaviour IE taking no responsibility for actions and behaving like the nation equivalent of a Hoodie.

Also I am sad to tell you 9 billion is chicken feed - it won't transform anything - it won't even make a noticeable difference. At best it could cover the difference between health cost increase % and CPI for a few years or increase welfare payments by 3% in a one off boost. Or to put it another way it could be used to pay off each year 0.6% of government debt , which is about a quarter of the amount spent on interest and that at a time of historically minute interest rates . It is like someone knocking a few hundred quid off the total owed balance on the average mortgage not zero but pretty irellevant. Now i would rather have a couple of hundred quid than the bank but if in return I had to take responsibility of a whole lot of new areas and add cost elsewhere I am not sure it'd be worth it for that

 

[cibaman]

The other countries have chosen a path of political and monetary union/free movement of labour. Presumably because they think these things are a good idea. So if not being part of this project is seen as being such a bad idea by the others then we should be able to respectfully decline to be part of it without this causing any problems. Unless of course they know that a UK freed from the chains of excessive regulation and costly directives would prosper?

They would certainly be very worried that the UK would prosper outside of the EU. And quite clearly if the UK escaped all of its obligations to the EU, didn't have to contribute to the budget, didn't have to follow the directives, didn't have to take EU workers, but still traded as before, then clearly the UK should be better off. Its all upside, no downside. I would definitely vote for that, if I thought it would happen.

 

[EalingBlue2]

They would certainly be very worried that the UK would prosper outside of the EU. And quite clearly if the UK escaped all of its obligations to the EU, didn't have to contribute to the budget, didn't have to follow the directives, didn't have to take EU workers, but still traded as before, then clearly the UK should be better off. Its all upside, no downside. I would definitely vote for that, if I thought it would happen.

If that's the case they May as well write off the EU portion of the 1.6 trillion national debt and pay in cash all they owe us as well if we're playing fantasy future?

 

[Ancient Citizen]

@lancs blue, Dont forget the whole regeneration of Liverpool ( and Glasgow ) that stemmed from the EU Capitol of culture grant, 2 major cities in the UK that have gained massively from being part of the EU, and the economic booms of those 2 cities will have had a decent impact on the income of the country in general.

If the EU had decided to forcibly relocate the whole Liverpool population to France, every fucker would be voting to stay in.

 

[hgblue]

They would certainly be very worried that the UK would prosper outside of the EU. And quite clearly if the UK escaped all of its obligations to the EU, didn't have to contribute to the budget, didn't have to follow the directives, didn't have to take EU workers, but still traded as before, then clearly the UK should be better off. Its all upside, no downside. I would definitely vote for that, if I thought it would happen.

Which begs the question, who is the European project meant to be for? If we would prosper outside of it and they know it, and this is the reason they can't allow the UK exit to succeed, it seems a very bizarre reason for staying.

 

[jimbopm]

You've got that totally the wrong way around.

I don't think I have. You're assuming (incorrectly and over simply) that because we run a trade deficit with the EU, that we are too important to them for the EU not to give us an equal or better deal. The EU buys roughly 50% of our exports, whereas the UK makes up 10% of the EU's import market. So whilst we may be a massive purchaser of goods from around the EU (mostly Holland and Germany) our negotiating power as a post Brexit nation would be pretty piss poor.

 

[blueonblue]

Last time I looked there were not many east Europeans from the middle east, in fact there are considerably less in eastern Europe because they pile over here in their millions. so your view on the middle east situation while interesting is irrelevant other than it adds another level to the numbers wanting to come here.

If there were indeed no fish then why are there countless factory ships from Europe in our fishing grounds ?, without the stupid EU quotes system the practice of tipping perfectly good (And dead) fish back into the sea because the wrong type swam into the net would end.

We have a home market for agriculture, we have never been an exporter.
Again you want to muddy the waters on the justice system, this is a common law country unlike the rest of Europe, an we have rights under that law the rest can only dream of.

Europe is not that stable now an fast getting worse, us getting the f*ck out could well trigger its break up because despite the constant "We are only a tiny little country who can not manage in the big bad world" nonsense from the inners, we are the 5th biggest economy in the world, we dont have to go cap in hand to anyone for trade.

 

[BlueHammer85]

"We are only a tiny little country who can not manage in the big bad world" nonsense from the inners, we are the 5th biggest economy in the world

Perhaps being part of the EU is why we are the 5th biggest economy in the world ?

 

[smudgedj]

Perhaps being part of the EU is why we are the 5th biggest economy in the world ?

Only because they have started adding on the illegal sex and drug industries to GDP

 

[Helmet Cole]

Perhaps being part of the EU is why we are the 5th biggest economy in the world ?

Perhaps it isn't? Take a quick look at historical data before the EU and I think you'll find we've been up there for quite a while. If you find data to support your premise please post it.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Perhaps it isn't? Take a quick look at historical data before the EU and I think you'll find we've been up there for quite a while. If you find data to support your premise please post it.

We were number 1 and about 50% bigger than anyone else not that many generations ago. We are 5th mainly because when you decline over a few centuries from 1st you go through most of the places on the way down. So yes we were up there the only real question is were we declining faster before or after we joined Europe and did it have any effect. In many ways our worst period was between the wars

 

[Metal Biker]

We were number 1 and about 50% bigger than anyone else not that many generations ago. We are 5th mainly because when you decline over a few centuries from 1st you go through most of the places on the way down. So yes we were up there the only real question is were we declining faster before or after we joined Europe and did it have any effect. In many ways our worst period was between the wars

"Between the wars"? Which wars, the World Wars? Hmmm now what significant economic and financial event could possibly have occured to affect Britain's economic status during that time...

We needed Europe to trade with to get ourselves back on our feet after 1945. De Gaulle stated our economy was 'incompatible' with Europe's and we were barred for many years before they relented. But we voted to join an economic union (EEC), NOT a political one (EU). That is the main crux of many 'outers' arguments and so far nobody has been able to convince me that, politically speaking, the EU has done anything beneficial for Britain. (If I hear the 'well what about human rights act?' argument once more I may scream...)

 

[Helmet Cole]

We were number 1 and about 50% bigger than anyone else not that many generations ago. We are 5th mainly because when you decline over a few centuries from 1st you go through most of the places on the way down. So yes we were up there the only real question is were we declining faster before or after we joined Europe and did it have any effect. In many ways our worst period was between the wars

Thanks for checking (I hadn't). I'd imagine our economic decline over the last few generations has been because we don't go around the world killing brown people and taking their things anymore - or at least as much. Also we are no longer having an industrial revolution -our things cost too much and we can't enslave our own poor as well as we used to. Our decline as a naval superpower and the end of the cold war has left us uneasy of our new place in the world, and this as much as economics probably should be part of the in/out debate. Economically we are in a state of managed decline and politically I think we have a global role to play by being neither part of the EU federal state, and also not part of team USA world police. I think we should stand as an island, nurture good relations with the east, west, Europe and act as a neutral 'good guy' stopping the world becoming polarised Orwell style. Hopefully trading with all will follow and keep us at least in the top 5.

 

[SWP's back]

If you don't pay you don't play


If I was running things there would be no campaign we would be spending time looking for real solutions to real problems . This exercise in blame to avoid hard discussions is doing a huge disservice to everyone. Little and Large may as well be running the campaigns they are both jokes

If you were running things you'd know better than the electorate and do your own things whatever everyone else wanted.

About sums the left up.