EU referendum

[blueonblue]

Who would have guessed an undervalued currency for the Germans would prove be a disaster for every other fucker.

The f*ckers behind the EU/Goldman Sachs for starters.

 

[blueonblue]

Anti EU feeling is so strong that I can't envisage a scenario where it'd be politically viable for any government to move towards 'closer union' without a referendum; it'd be political suicide.

Except the money men behind the EU dont care what party holds the illusion of "Power", and just what is suicidal about taking the money an being set up for life ?, politicians by their very nature are there at the whim of the voters, is there any of them you would trust not to take the money ?.

 

[blueonblue]

I also think Britain is pinning its out strategy on financial services which will on my view be ripped apart by technology and globalisation in a way that will make Airbnb, uber etc look tiny, that the assumptions on negotiations are wildly optimistic and that as trade and tax are truly globalising and blocs are forming to give power in negotiation it would be folly to try and push back the tide of history.

Neither technology or globalization can or will replace expertise and trust, we are the big dog in the financial services world for that reason.

You want to claim all the advantages of large blocs without looking at their drawbacks, speed an flexibility has kept middle and small size businesses thriving in the face of global giants with far more negotiating power, an thats without the drawback of all the components having different national interests and 27 bosses all wanting a say.

You talk of a mythical Britain long gone yet give life to the biggest myth of the last fifty years in that the EU is beneficial to anyone but the money men behind it.
Has the flood of east Europeans benefited Britain ?, or undermined wages while adding to unemployment and putting excess pressure on housing, schools, health services, ect.
Has the loss of those workers benefited Eastern europe ?, how can a country grow and build when the people needed to do it have all f*cked off.
The only effect is an out flow of money being sent back "Home" by the migrants an the illusion of cheap labour ( Its an illusion because it takes no account of the cost to the country keeping the native worker via benefits, paying any working benefits like tax credits/child allowance to a "Low paid" migrant).

How does a country grow if the system to educate children is hampered not only by numbers but many of the kids not speaking the same language or even having the same values.

Does it benefit people on a housing waiting lists when those lists get longer ( Lets not even get into the migrants who get priority onto those lists) or when rents go up due to more demand so they can not afford to move.

Money is not the be all and end all of this matter, the rights we have as a common law country have been fought for and won, they are not to be handed away by f*cking politicians, there are lots of things wrong in this country but we still have a vote to try and change things, and laws to protect us, neither of which will be the case if the EU has its way.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Neither technology or globalization can or will replace expertise and trust, we are the big dog in the financial services world for that reason.

You want to claim all the advantages of large blocs without looking at their drawbacks, speed an flexibility has kept middle and small size businesses thriving in the face of global giants with far more negotiating power, an thats without the drawback of all the components having different national interests and 27 bosses all wanting a say.

You talk of a mythical Britain long gone yet give life to the biggest myth of the last fifty years in that the EU is beneficial to anyone but the money men behind it.
Has the flood of east Europeans benefited Britain ?, or undermined wages while adding to unemployment and putting excess pressure on housing, schools, health services, ect.
Has the loss of those workers benefited Eastern europe ?, how can a country grow and build when the people needed to do it have all f*cked off.
The only effect is an out flow of money being sent back "Home" by the migrants an the illusion of cheap labour ( Its an illusion because it takes no account of the cost to the country keeping the native worker via benefits, paying any working benefits like tax credits/child allowance to a "Low paid" migrant).

How does a country grow if the system to educate children is hampered not only by numbers but many of the kids not speaking the same language or even having the same values.

Does it benefit people on a housing waiting lists when those lists get longer ( Lets not even get into the migrants who get priority onto those lists) or when rents go up due to more demand so they can not afford to move.

Money is not the be all and end all of this matter, the rights we have as a common law country have been fought for and won, they are not to be handed away by f*cking politicians, there are lots of things wrong in this country but we still have a vote to try and change things, and laws to protect us, neither of which will be the case if the EU has its way.

Spot on.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Neither technology or globalization can or will replace expertise and trust, we are the big dog in the financial services world for that reason.

You want to claim all the advantages of large blocs without looking at their drawbacks, speed an flexibility has kept middle and small size businesses thriving in the face of global giants with far more negotiating power, an thats without the drawback of all the components having different national interests and 27 bosses all wanting a say.

You talk of a mythical Britain long gone yet give life to the biggest myth of the last fifty years in that the EU is beneficial to anyone but the money men behind it.
Has the flood of east Europeans benefited Britain ?, or undermined wages while adding to unemployment and putting excess pressure on housing, schools, health services, ect.
Has the loss of those workers benefited Eastern europe ?, how can a country grow and build when the people needed to do it have all f*cked off.
The only effect is an out flow of money being sent back "Home" by the migrants an the illusion of cheap labour ( Its an illusion because it takes no account of the cost to the country keeping the native worker via benefits, paying any working benefits like tax credits/child allowance to a "Low paid" migrant).

How does a country grow if the system to educate children is hampered not only by numbers but many of the kids not speaking the same language or even having the same values.

Does it benefit people on a housing waiting lists when those lists get longer ( Lets not even get into the migrants who get priority onto those lists) or when rents go up due to more demand so they can not afford to move.

Money is not the be all and end all of this matter, the rights we have as a common law country have been fought for and won, they are not to be handed away by f*cking politicians, there are lots of things wrong in this country but we still have a vote to try and change things, and laws to protect us, neither of which will be the case if the EU has its way.

I read that as a post of a person who doesn't believe in multiculturalism, doesn't believe in economic freedom and believes in fear and retreating to the past and opening up the future. As for your comments on finance they read like the same comments made about mobile phones, Internet shopping, Airbnb , uber etc by people who refused to see what is happening all business relies on expertise and trust and when that is quickly proven to not be legitimate, change happens.

You arguments are all against multiculturalism, against freedom of labour against the way the world is going and being in or out of the EU will be utterly irellevant in these changes hurting your life

 

[stonerblue]

Jeez this thread gets more childish and boring by the hour. The 'Lefties' are this, the Rightys are that, the same old posters regurgitating the same old shit to suit their ideas and very few real facts.
I wouldn't mind but there's only a handfull of posters keeping it going whilst the rest of us look on shaking our heads at the sheer stupidity of a referendum in the first place.

 

[mekonmcfc]

I read that as a post of a person who doesn't believe in multiculturalism, doesn't believe in economic freedom and believes in fear and retreating to the past and opening up the future. As for your comments on finance they read like the same comments made about mobile phones, Internet shopping, Airbnb , uber etc by people who refused to see what is happening all business relies on expertise and trust and when that is quickly proven to not be legitimate, change happens.

You arguments are all against multiculturalism, against freedom of labour against the way the world is going and being in or out of the EU will be utterly irellevant in these changes hurting your life

i didnt read it like that, i thought some good points

 

[EalingBlue2]

i didnt read it like that, i thought some good points

That's probably the point that stoner was making a dozen people making 90% of the posts all locked in to their thinking.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I read that as a post of a person who doesn't believe in multiculturalism, doesn't believe in economic freedom and believes in fear and retreating to the past and opening up the future. As for your comments on finance they read like the same comments made about mobile phones, Internet shopping, Airbnb , uber etc by people who refused to see what is happening all business relies on expertise and trust and when that is quickly proven to not be legitimate, change happens.

You arguments are all against multiculturalism, against freedom of labour against the way the world is going and being in or out of the EU will be utterly irellevant in these changes hurting your life

I read your post as someone who means well but misses a major point.

Free movement of labour is one of the major issues facing our planet not just the eu. Take genuine war torn areas out of it as that is a separate issue, the technolological advances Which connects the people of the world And unfortunately gangs of people smugglers willing to take people means those people who are either driven or qualified try and move to better themselves and who can blame them. Who wouldn't.

However the weaker country just gets weaker and the economic divide between strong countries and weak countries grow. In the Eu How does Greece Portugal Rumania and the poles get stronger when there strongest best people move to another country freely for a better life. I would do this as well as I am pretty driven but when there are no controls on the amount of people the gap just gets bigger and bigger as lots of people do it. Germany and the Uk get stronger. The economic and political imbalance gets bigger in the euro . how really can these countries share the same currency ?

You mean well I am sure you really do but I am not sure free movement of labour is good for the long term issues facing a lot of the countries in the Eu. You may Not give a shit about this but it's a massive issue. I suppose you could be better off long term it that means even lower house prices in Spain Portugal or Greece for you to freely go to to enjoy your retirement, drawing your uk pension in euros.

 

[EalingBlue2]

I read your post as someone who means well but misses a major point.

Free movement of labour is one of the major issues facing our planet not just the eu. Take genuine war torn areas out of it as that is a separate issue, the technolological advances Which connects the people of the world And unfortunately gangs of people smugglers willing to take people means those people who are either driven or qualified try and move to better themselves and who can blame them. Who wouldn't.

However the weaker country just gets weaker and the economic divide between strong countries and weak countries grow. In the Eu How does Greece Portugal Rumania and the poles get stronger when there strongest best people move to another country freely for a better life. I would do this as well as I am pretty driven but when there are no controls on the amount of people the gap just gets bigger and bigger as lots of people do it. Germany and the Uk get stronger. The economic and political imbalance gets bigger in the euro . how really can these countries share the same currency ?

You mean well I am sure you really do but I am not sure free movement of labour is good for the long term issues facing a lot of the countries in the Eu. You may Not give a shit about this but it's a massive issue. I suppose you could be better off long term it that means even lower house prices in Spain Portugal or Greece for you to freely go to to enjoy your retirement, drawing your uk pension in euros.

What you talk about goes against the facts though as a % of the world economy and in terms of growth Western Europe , USA etc are falling back and have done so for some time and will continue to do so, while consumption , growth, increasing size of middle class drives more power into the poor countries you deride. The world is pivoting back to Asia which has dominated GDP for all but the last 100 or so years and will dominate again soon. your view of the world is dated, there is nothing to be well meaning about its just the inevitable happening

 

[BigJoe#1]

That's probably the point that stoner was making a dozen people making 90% of the posts all locked in to their thinking.

Acknowledging Stonerblue is probably referring to me, I might suggest that it applies to you too. BIG TIME!

 

[blueonblue]

I read that as a post of a person who doesn't believe in multiculturalism, doesn't believe in economic freedom and believes in fear and retreating to the past and opening up the future

Leaving aside the nonsense you slip in on "Multiculturalism" for a moment lets look at economic freedom shall we, please point me in the direction of any statement where I have not advocated the economic freedom to trade with anyone, while its you that defends the EU position that restricts trade without preset conditions.
The remain campaign as well as your postings are based on fear and opposition to opening up the future by trading with the world rather than a small part of it.
Freedom of labour is a far cry from undermining pay, job security, and working conditions, and again look at who exactly it benefits, because it aint the workers.

Now lets go back to your utter drivel that multiculturalism has any part in this shall we ?, I advocate we deal with the whole world, that we bring in the skills we need from the whole world, explain the conflict with multiculturalism in that, or get your hands up that its no more than the usual lefty bullshite of implied racism because you can not come up with a logical answer

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

What you talk about goes against the facts though as a % of the world economy and in terms of growth Western Europe , USA etc are falling back and have done so for some time and will continue to do so, while consumption , growth, increasing size of middle class drives more power into the poor countries you deride. The world is pivoting back to Asia which has dominated GDP for all but the last 100 or so years and will dominate again soon. your view of the world is dated, there is nothing to be well meaning about its just the inevitable happening

We agree on this. Have been lucky enough to go to Korea Shanghai Hong Kong and Singapore and what you see is just amazing confidence and growth. It's crackers actually and overwhelming

Even in this region though there has been masses of migration of people and exploitation of people from weaker countries which is not good.

From a population management and environmental point of view having people moving freely around the globe is madness. We have loads of people migrating to areas of dominance with no control is not good from an environmental point of view and not good from a long term view of the receiving country and the outgoing country. Free movement of labour can have massive long term effects. Australia and New Zealand recognised this early on.

There are riots in Greece, I think they would like a referendum but I am afraid the economic damage is now done and they are between a rock and a hard place.

I just think free movement of labour is great if you are the one moving but if you are loyal and staying you just see what is left getting worse and worse and wonder whether your loyalty was a good thing after all and you should have just pissed off ages ago like everyone else..

 

[EalingBlue2]

Acknowledging Stonerblue is probably referring to me, I might suggest that it applies to you too. BIG TIME!

Absolutely it does!

 

[EalingBlue2]

We agree on this. Have been lucky enough to go to Korea Shanghai Hong Kong and Singapore and what you see is just amazing confidence and growth. It's crackers actually and overwhelming

Even in this region though there has been masses of migration of people and exploitation of people from weaker countries which is not good.

From a population management and environmental point of view having people moving freely around the globe is madness. We have loads of people migrating to areas of dominance with no control is not good from an environmental point of view and not good from a long term view of the receiving country and the outgoing country. Free movement of labour can have massive long term effects. Australia and New Zealand recognised this early on.

There are riots in Greece, I think they would like a referendum but I am afraid the economic damage is now done and they are between a rock and a hard place.

I just think free movement of labour is great if you are the one moving but if you are loyal and staying you just see what is left getting worse and worse and wonder whether your loyalty was a good thing after all and you should have just pissed off ages ago like everyone else..

You make your choice and you live with your choice, many people stay because that is what they want to do and how they enjoy life and get The most from it. But all in all of you make your decisions and take responsibility for them

 

[EalingBlue2]

Leaving aside the nonsense you slip in on "Multiculturalism" for a moment lets look at economic freedom shall we, please point me in the direction of any statement where I have not advocated the economic freedom to trade with anyone, while its you that defends the EU position that restricts trade without preset conditions.
The remain campaign as well as your postings are based on fear and opposition to opening up the future by trading with the world rather than a small part of it.
Freedom of labour is a far cry from undermining pay, job security, and working conditions, and again look at who exactly it benefits, because it aint the workers.

Now lets go back to your utter drivel that multiculturalism has any part in this shall we ?, I advocate we deal with the whole world, that we bring in the skills we need from the whole world, explain the conflict with multiculturalism in that, or get your hands up that its no more than the usual lefty bullshite of implied racism because you can not come up with a logical answer

That not what you said though is it , you wrote about immigrants filling schools, bringing down wages , straining hospitals and all the usual stuff..... I don't alledge racism you have done that, it reads more like a Luddite desire for a past that's gone or a selfish desire to deny others opportunity to make your own easier? If people come here or there and make companies more productive and do a better job, pay tax to help maintain the unfunded elderly then good on them , if I need to lift my game so be it but fear and blame certainly won't do anyone any good

As for the lefty thing how comical I am defending capitalism and the basic principle of the free movement of labour. You are defending closing shops and protecting markets by denying labour competition - who is the leftie?

 

[blueonblue]

No thats not what I said though is it ?, since when has MASS immigration equated to multiculturalism, again straight out of the little leftie play book with the deliberate fogging on the huge difference between immigration and MASS immigration (I used capitals so you can pick up the word you keep missing ).

If it preaches like a leftie, talks shite it can not defend like a leftie, then its usually a leftie

 

[Monkfish]

The remain campaign as well as your postings are based on fear and opposition to opening up the future by trading with the world rather than a small part of it.

yeah the EU stops us exporting to the rest of the world, just like it stops Germany exporting to the rest of the world ....oh wait

 

[BigJoe#1]

yeah the EU stops us exporting to the rest of the world, just like it stops Germany exporting to the rest of the world ....oh wait

It does though, it prevents us from striking individual or bilateral agreements with countries outside the EU. We can only negotiate with countries outside the EU through the EU.

Still, the fact that the EU mergers committee can rule whether or not O2 and Three can merge in the UK does not sit right with me - regardless of whether or not I think the decision is correct, which incidentally I do. It should be up to the UK to make those decisions for itself, shouldn't it? Do the EU have the same stipulations and considerations as we might have?

 

[EalingBlue2]

No thats not what I said though is it ?, since when has MASS immigration equated to multiculturalism, again straight out of the little leftie play book with the deliberate fogging on the huge difference between immigration and MASS immigration (I used capitals so you can pick up the word you keep missing ).

If it preaches like a leftie, talks shite it can not defend like a leftie, then its usually a leftie

I think you have very little grasp of what left and right is, beyond a lazy Daily Mail stereotype. The left has often been more anti immigration than the right , has been far more protective of labour and against the free flow than the right and just as intolerant of groups , religions etc as the right. I think you confuse tolerance, progressiveness, liberal ideals with the left and conservative , intolerance , protectionism with the right. There are huge chunks of both the left and right who would fervently share the opposite view than which you espouse to them.

Little englanders , those who panic about immigration , those who seek to be isolationist or protectionist and those who hark for a past that is long gone come from both left and right and actually I see your views on here as quite lefty. UKIP are quite left in some ways and in many ways the far right or Tories and labour are much closer than they think and the left of the Tories and right of labour are far closer than they would admit.

That is reality but it doesn't confirm to lazy stereotype a hole I admit to falling into pm here by associating brexit with the right which is true on the face of it based on supporters but won't reflect the actual voters