EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

I thought i would get a recent quote on what BoJo reckoned would be good advice as a leading Brexiter.

Well, that went well

That is absolutely spot on but he then decided to put ambition before country - disgusting

 

[smudgedj]

I thought i would get a recent quote on what BoJo reckoned would be good advice as a leading Brexiter.

Well, that went well

Abandoned liberty in favour of perhaps a more secure economy for a year or so. Winner

 

[inbetween]

Yes everyday due to what I do for a living.

One example If you are involved in the travel industry there is a new directive coming in called the package travel directive. It's designed to protect consumers if they book online so it means well at its heart but it is full of red tape and inconsistencies with other European legislation and vat legislation. Sorry it sounds poncy this reply but you asked. The directive is well intentioned by the way but the level of crap travel companies have to now sort as a consequence is an example of red tape etc. There already is abta and atol so it's just well...google it if you want to see an actual directive coming in. You could argue Google is the ultimate travel company btw but that is for another thread.

Anyway look the actual laws are well intentioned and I am sure in the end we will get through it but the principle of the Eu again now getting involved and imposing An overarching law on the uk and other member states is just well in my view wrong. The law makers need to be held to account by those that elect them. That principle is divorced now. It's actually even divorced within the Eu itself as the meps don't make the law.

I think the biggest risk ironically in regaining the ability to make our own laws is giving OUR politicians the ability to make our own laws. Public trust has eroded in this establishment and government and the same people moaning about that are sometimes the same ones who want to hand them 100% of the power instead of the 15% they currently have? Things like the EU working time directive could be completely eliminated overnight, there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't be as it would no longer apply to us. Anyone saying they won't, well, name me a Tory government famed for it's lawmaking to benefit workers....

That is just one example, I'm sure there are many more but the question is do you trust this government or do you not? It would be interesting to see how few trust this government yet the poll in this forum strangely shows more people want to give them more power? Obviously that is a problem just because of the government we have. Because of this though the ability to make our own law argument really falls flat to be honest as the reality of what will be done with that power is actually quite grim.

I'm all for leaving for many reasons but I think many only see the things they want rather than the simple fact it won't all be rosy giving our politicians the mandate to do as they wish. Europe is quite liberal and that is largely responsible for many of the better laws out there which we all enjoy and certainly ones which would never come from a Tory government.

Did you know that holiday pay, maternity/paternity leave only came about thanks to the EU? Anyone considering making the law argument should read on the state of Britain in the 1970's because that is potentially where we are taking this country back to.

 

[CityStu]

I think the biggest risk ironically in regaining the ability to make our own laws is giving OUR politicians the ability to make our own laws. Public trust has eroded in this establishment and government and the same people moaning about that are sometimes the same ones who want to hand them 100% of the power instead of the 15% they currently have? Things like the EU working time directive could be completely eliminated overnight, there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't be as it would no longer apply to us. Anyone saying they won't, well, name me a Tory government famed for it's lawmaking to benefit workers....

That is just one example, I'm sure there are many more but the question is do you trust this government or do you not? It would be interesting to see how few trust this government yet the poll in this forum strangely shows more people want to give them more power? Obviously that is a problem just because of the government we have. Because of this though the ability to make our own law argument really falls flat to be honest as the reality of what will be done with that power is actually quite grim.

I'm all for leaving for many reasons but I think many only see the things they want rather than the simple fact it won't all be rosy giving our politicians the mandate to do as they wish. Europe is quite liberal and that is largely responsible for many of the better laws out there which we all enjoy and certainly ones which would never come from a Tory government.

Did you know that holiday pay, maternity/paternity leave only came about thanks to the EU? Anyone considering making the law argument should read on the state of Britain in the 1970's because that is potentially where we are taking this country back to.

If the government were stupid enough to push for people to work longer days and the removal of paternity, maternity and holiday pay, they'd be voted out in the next GE without a doubt. Even someone as divisive as Corbyn would get elected on those issues.

Meanwhile, if the EU start to do things that you disagree with, how can you vote them out?

 

[BigJoe#1]

I think the biggest risk ironically in regaining the ability to make our own laws is giving OUR politicians the ability to make our own laws. Public trust has eroded in this establishment and government and the same people moaning about that are sometimes the same ones who want to hand them 100% of the power instead of the 15% they currently have? Things like the EU working time directive could be completely eliminated overnight, there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't be as it would no longer apply to us. Anyone saying they won't, well, name me a Tory government famed for it's lawmaking to benefit workers....

That is just one example, I'm sure there are many more but the question is do you trust this government or do you not? It would be interesting to see how few trust this government yet the poll in this forum strangely shows more people want to give them more power? Obviously that is a problem just because of the government we have. Because of this though the ability to make our own law argument really falls flat to be honest as the reality of what will be done with that power is actually quite grim.

I'm all for leaving for many reasons but I think many only see the things they want rather than the simple fact it won't all be rosy giving our politicians the mandate to do as they wish. Europe is quite liberal and that is largely responsible for many of the better laws out there which we all enjoy and certainly ones which would never come from a Tory government.

Did you know that holiday pay, maternity/paternity leave only came about thanks to the EU? Anyone considering making the law argument should read on the state of Britain in the 1970's because that is potentially where we are taking this country back to.

I agree entirely with your overall point. It is a risk giving this, or any UK Government more power - however the counter arguement would be that our elected government are more accountable and it would be easier to remove them at the next GE as CityStu pointed out above - but still it is a risk.

Furthermore it is a risk to assume that the £8,500m direct savings on net contribution will be invested back into the infrastructure of this country - there would be nothing stopping them lobbing another 5p off the top rate of tax and cutting inheritence tax for example.

It us also a risk to assume that the £6,000m that the EU reinvest back into the poorest areas of Britain will continue to be re-invested in the same way by any government of any persuasion as opposed to using the cash to progress their own political ambition.

It is further a risk to assume that world markets will be easily accessible when we leave, but I gapped to think they will and that individual countries in Europe will still wish to do business with us.

All the above and more applies without exception - however there is equally nothing to prove all the advances made over the last forty odd years would not have been far greater had we not been tied down by the slowest moving economies and had to deal with objections and other countries self interests to negotiate settlements - Turkey us great case in point at the moment. I want to break free from being restricted by being shackled to the apron strings of the EU.

Taking all into account, my opinion us we would be better off in respect of:

Border .control
Immigration
Security
Economy
Reducing Bureaucracy and improving accountability by leaving.

As I said its nit without risk, but with risk comes reward and that my friends is why I embrace change and relish a challenge.

 

[stonerblue]

Loads of hypermarkets will open up in Dover selling hoovers to the Europeans starved of extra hoover wattage. It will be booze cruise all over again, just needs a catchy name.

'Suck 'n' Save'

 

[EalingBlue2]

I am interested from the brexiters just how strong they think the European balance sheet is to deal even with a small recession, small currency volatility and a small credit crunch, the above is an absolute best case scenario.

Interesting was at a meeting today with a fair amount of CFOs, economists and strategists all experts in the Asian economies, Not one believed Brexit Would win and the most common comment was I wouldn't worry, cool heads will prevail or similar. why did they think that ? because Europe simply could not cope with the effects as there is fragile growth, high unemployment and little ammunition left to stimulate the economies or refloat the banks. Similar opinion on voting for the Donald, it is not discounted for as people don't believe it could happen.

I think some investment on the downside for Europe could be wise as I think that people are far more inclined to step off the cliff than the institutions believe. That said I thought the scots could walk off the cliff too.

On the positive side I learnt something new today and that is Australia is 9 months off recording the longest period of continuous growth in OECD history and is still growing also population increasing due to immigration by 1.5% a year so we are ready to help with the capital and skills flight if it comes

 

[stonerblue]

I think the biggest risk ironically in regaining the ability to make our own laws is giving OUR politicians the ability to make our own laws. Public trust has eroded in this establishment and government and the same people moaning about that are sometimes the same ones who want to hand them 100% of the power instead of the 15% they currently have? Things like the EU working time directive could be completely eliminated overnight, there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't be as it would no longer apply to us. Anyone saying they won't, well, name me a Tory government famed for it's lawmaking to benefit workers....

That is just one example, I'm sure there are many more but the question is do you trust this government or do you not? It would be interesting to see how few trust this government yet the poll in this forum strangely shows more people want to give them more power? Obviously that is a problem just because of the government we have. Because of this though the ability to make our own law argument really falls flat to be honest as the reality of what will be done with that power is actually quite grim.

I'm all for leaving for many reasons but I think many only see the things they want rather than the simple fact it won't all be rosy giving our politicians the mandate to do as they wish. Europe is quite liberal and that is largely responsible for many of the better laws out there which we all enjoy and certainly ones which would never come from a Tory government.

Did you know that holiday pay, maternity/paternity leave only came about thanks to the EU? Anyone considering making the law argument should read on the state of Britain in the 1970's because that is potentially where we are taking this country back to.

Finally.

 

[BigJoe#1]

I thought i would get a recent quote on what BoJo reckoned would be good advice as a leading Brexiter.

Well, that went well

It is a refreshing change to see a politician actually being honest and telling the truth, telling it as it is.

Perhaps Ken your idols such as Call me Dave and Gideon could follow with learning how not to lie and exaggerate....?

 

[EalingBlue2]

Finally.

It is a conundrum, people will vote x because someone is saying vote y and they don't trust them , but by voting that way they hand even more power to the person they are in effect going to vote against .

 

[Manchester_lalala]

It is a refreshing change to see a politician actually being honest and telling the truth, telling it as it is.

Perhaps Ken your idols such as Call me Dave and Gideon could follow with learning how not to lie and exaggerate....?

David Cameron doesn't lie, I think he's a really honest bloke.

 

[EalingBlue2]

It is a refreshing change to see a politician actually being honest and telling the truth, telling it as it is.

Perhaps Ken your idols such as Call me Dave and Gideon could follow with learning how not to lie and exaggerate....?

Is this not the man who invoked Hitler? The most over the top , vain and self interested politician of a bad bunch . Lots of people pretend to tell it like it is, maybe even believe they tell it like it is but very very few actually do.

 

[Pino]

We have the option to vote in the UK every five years, to either continue with the Govt in power, or throw them out, and install a different Party with a different ideology.
This is called democracy and helps to reset any damaging policies carried out previously.
What is not obvious to a dilatory UK population, is that the BREXIT VOTE is a once in a lifetime opportunity to reclaim our freedom from a corrupt ,autocratic,anti-democratic,unaccountable bureaucracy that is the EU.
If we do not exit the EU we tie ourselves to a union that has brought austerity,with its accompanying poverty and chaos to many countries in Europe.
Contrary to what PM Cameron states regarding the possibility of war outside the EU. Remaining within the EU,increases the likelihood of UK involvement in war..
Membership of the EU has been extended to the countries of the old Soviet Union Eastern bloc. This was not an economic decision or a concern for the welfare of the peoples of these Eastern bloc countries. Rather it was a hidden political one with far reaching ramifications.
Membership of the EU,brings with it almost mandatory membership of NATO.
NATO has instigated wars in Yugoslavia in 1989, Libya and Syria,
In Ukraine it was involved in the coup which installed a neo-Nazi regime
All of these countries are now failed states and the European refugee problems are the visible result.
GW Bush unilaterally exited the ABM nuclear treaty in 2002. NATO troops are now building up on the borders of the Baltic states. Nuclear missiles are now installed in Romania and soon Poland ,to be zeroed on Russia.
This is a new Wall to cut-off trade between East and West. Disruption of the New Silk Road trade routes from China to Europe are caused by the war in Syria and the Washington domination of Ukraine.
The EU is a patsy for Washington policies against the rising powers of BRIC countries.
It is not in the UK’s political or economic interests to be part of the EU.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Is this not the man who invoked Hitler? The most over the top , vain and self interested politician of a bad bunch . Lots of people pretend to tell it like it is, maybe even believe they tell it like it is but very very few actually do.

Stop devaluing your own arguements and trying to score cheap points. What he actually said was true.

What the EU is striving to achieve, a single Europe, is similar to what Napoleon and Hitler were striving to achieve. They went about it in a much more horrific and aggressive manner and were not so keen on power sharing, but the end objective is the same. A single Europe under one governing power. Be a sensitive soul and feel free to take offence if you must, as did all the UK Remain supporting press but if you cannot understand the point being made I suggest you be kind to yourself and hide your ignorance and naievity by moving on.

 

[BigJoe#1]

I am interested from the brexiters just how strong they think the European balance sheet is to deal even with a small recession, small currency volatility and a small credit crunch, the above is an absolute best case scenario.

Interesting was at a meeting today with a fair amount of CFOs, economists and strategists all experts in the Asian economies, Not one believed Brexit Would win and the most common comment was I wouldn't worry, cool heads will prevail or similar. why did they think that ? because Europe simply could not cope with the effects as there is fragile growth, high unemployment and little ammunition left to stimulate the economies or refloat the banks. Similar opinion on voting for the Donald, it is not discounted for as people don't believe it could happen.

I think some investment on the downside for Europe could be wise as I think that people are far more inclined to step off the cliff than the institutions believe. That said I thought the scots could walk off the cliff too.

On the positive side I learnt something new today and that is Australia is 9 months off recording the longest period of continuous growth in OECD history and is still growing also population increasing due to immigration by 1.5% a year so we are ready to help with the capital and skills flight if it comes

Blimey such an outpouring of arrogance and complacency in one go.

You deserve to be on losing side for even believing that, never mind posting it!

To answers your opening question.. Simply No. I don't think the EU could stand a Brexit, but that is no reason to stay. It us already widely thought that if we leave the natives of other nations Netherlands and Germany amongst them will press to have their own referendums to enable them to leave.

Brexit will be the end of the EU as we know it, I think that is indisputable, it could not continue without our cash. Selfish maybe but that cannot be our problem.

 

[blueonblue]

On the positive side I learnt something new today and that is Australia is 9 months off recording the longest period of continuous growth in OECD history and is still growing also population increasing due to immigration by 1.5% a year so we are ready to help with the capital and skills flight if it comes

Correct me if I am wrong but Australia does have a strict immigration points system in place, the very one UKIP has consistently called for in fact, does that mean you can now see the difference between controlled and unfettered MASS immigration ?.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

We have the option to vote in the UK every five years, to either continue with the Govt in power, or throw them out, and install a different Party with a different ideology.
This is called democracy and helps to reset any damaging policies carried out previously.
What is not obvious to a dilatory UK population, is that the BREXIT VOTE is a once in a lifetime opportunity to reclaim our freedom from a corrupt ,autocratic,anti-democratic,unaccountable bureaucracy that is the EU.
If we do not exit the EU we tie ourselves to a union that has brought austerity,with its accompanying poverty and chaos to many countries in Europe.
Contrary to what PM Cameron states regarding the possibility of war outside the EU. Remaining within the EU,increases the likelihood of UK involvement in war..
Membership of the EU has been extended to the countries of the old Soviet Union Eastern bloc. This was not an economic decision or a concern for the welfare of the peoples of these Eastern bloc countries. Rather it was a hidden political one with far reaching ramifications.
Membership of the EU,brings with it almost mandatory membership of NATO.
NATO has instigated wars in Yugoslavia in 1989, Libya and Syria,
In Ukraine it was involved in the coup which installed a neo-Nazi regime
All of these countries are now failed states and the European refugee problems are the visible result.
GW Bush unilaterally exited the ABM nuclear treaty in 2002. NATO troops are now building up on the borders of the Baltic states. Nuclear missiles are now installed in Romania and soon Poland ,to be zeroed on Russia.
This is a new Wall to cut-off trade between East and West. Disruption of the New Silk Road trade routes from China to Europe are caused by the war in Syria and the Washington domination of Ukraine.
The EU is a patsy for Washington policies against the rising powers of BRIC countries.
It is not in the UK’s political or economic interests to be part of the EU.

Would you mind expanding on your claim that NATO instigated war in Yugoslavia in 1989?
I only ask because I was involved in the Yugoslavian conflicts and have a very different memory of the events.

 

[Monkfish]

Is this not the man who invoked Hitler? The most over the top , vain and self interested politician of a bad bunch . Lots of people pretend to tell it like it is, maybe even believe they tell it like it is but very very few actually do.

Scary thing is Bozz does not actually believe what he is saying, he knows this is his only chance of his lifelong ambition to rule over us and is gambling Trump style saying anything to get his wish

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Oh yeah!
It is amazing how the outers keep coming out with these proclamations.

If it is true that every country has to adopt the euro by 2020 why have we learned about it on a poxy football forum?
Why aren't the combined nut jobs who are running the out campaign screaming it at every opportunity?
Why hasn't it been splashed all over the pro Brexit media?

Where is the source material to prove the claim?

Well Cameron said if we left the Eu it could lead to world war 3 but he never bothered to mention that in his 9m booklet that fell on to everyone's mat. I would have thought that would be point 1 of page 1.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I think the biggest risk ironically in regaining the ability to make our own laws is giving OUR politicians the ability to make our own laws. Public trust has eroded in this establishment and government and the same people moaning about that are sometimes the same ones who want to hand them 100% of the power instead of the 15% they currently have? Things like the EU working time directive could be completely eliminated overnight, there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't be as it would no longer apply to us. Anyone saying they won't, well, name me a Tory government famed for it's lawmaking to benefit workers....

That is just one example, I'm sure there are many more but the question is do you trust this government or do you not? It would be interesting to see how few trust this government yet the poll in this forum strangely shows more people want to give them more power? Obviously that is a problem just because of the government we have. Because of this though the ability to make our own law argument really falls flat to be honest as the reality of what will be done with that power is actually quite grim.

I'm all for leaving for many reasons but I think many only see the things they want rather than the simple fact it won't all be rosy giving our politicians the mandate to do as they wish. Europe is quite liberal and that is largely responsible for many of the better laws out there which we all enjoy and certainly ones which would never come from a Tory government.

Did you know that holiday pay, maternity/paternity leave only came about thanks to the EU? Anyone considering making the law argument should read on the state of Britain in the 1970's because that is potentially where we are taking this country back to.

Couple of things.

I never said all the Euro laws are bad some are good. Yes our governments introduce crap laws as well. That isn't the point it's the principle of the separation of law makers with voters.

Countries not part of the European union around the world have progressed their own legislation over the same period on similar topicsand I am sure we would have don exactly the same.