Joe Hart (joined Torino on season long loan - Official)

[andyhinch]

Please sell Joe Hart
Crappy Joey Hart
Punches without catching in his hands.
'Cos if you sell Joe Hart,
Crappy Joey Hart
We might get a goalie who understands.

Will you be singing that in the star bar ?

 

[BlueMoonz1977]

If the rumour about Ter-Stegen has some truth to it, maybe Joe being dropped for today is because he could be heading to Everton ?

 

[Zin 'messiah' Zimmer]

I'd rather there was no cause to let him go, but if it has to happen, so be it. I just don't believe if you're the supposed to be one of the best coaches in the world, you choose not to coach a player within a matter of weeks. It makes far more sense that there's other issues than 'ball at feet'.

As for Barca, I've seen plenty. Theres'a reason why Neuer is the 'sweeper keeper' pinup boy and not Valdes, that's because Valdes was never renowned for it.
This 'ball at his feet' criticism is all since Pep arrived and suddenly everybody's on Hart's back about it. Hart has other issues that we've all seen for many seasons, but the ball at his feet issue isn't one of them (imo) - that's a new buzz phrase being put forward as the reason why Pep doesn't fancy Hart. Nobody was putting that forward as the reason Pellegrini thought he needed some time out.

Who mentioned 'sweeper keeper'? You stated that Valdes didn't play the ball out whilst at barca and they were somewhat successful anyway... This is totally false, I'd hazard a guess you haven't read peps book?? It was one of the first things he implemented and it evolved from his experience of playing in Italy....

There's a fine margin between improving your capabilities and excelling at them, if you've not noticed that Pep demands the best then improving in this instance, isn't good enough... It's categorically the right decision, Joe has been stale for a couple of seasons.

Some of us have been discussing this long before Pep was announced and shot down for it, now coincidentally he's here and something is afoot!!

 

[FanchesterCity]

But it wasn't a matter of weeks was it? Are you really that naive? Or is it possible, perhaps, that Pep has done his homework on this squad a number of months ago? He knew he was coming here 3 years ago ffs!! It was always going to happen.

He has arrived at the same judgement as me and several others on here with a brain cell, that being his game has a major flaw and is not suited to Peps style.

I wish Joe all the best for his future, but it's the correct decision.

Of course he'd have seen what was going on, but at the same time, until you can coach him, you can't know for sure what improvements are possible and what aren't.
The rumours about Pep not fancying Joe have been around for at least a year - the press were speculating on it during Pellegrini's tenure. However if we've been aware that Pep didn't fancy him, then shouldn't we have been seeking a replacement for some time too?

Every player can be upgraded, and Hart should be no exception, but he's not our weakest link (imo). There are more pressing matters at the back than just Joe!

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

Are your basing that on the pre season friendlies when this system was new to everyone?

They have had a little more time now to adjust and the CBs will be developing also. We need to just see how things pan out.

Being honest, do you think Joe has good distribution skills?

I think distribution is the last attribute I look for in a keeper, way less important than the ability to keep the ball out of our net.

I also think some of the criticism of Joe's distribution is way OTT. We had a very small and/or slightly built set of attackers (Kun, Navas, Silva, KDB, Sterling) last season and often his only option was Sagna hugging the touchline on halfway. It left virtually no margin for error - and Glenn Hoddle in his pomp would have fared little better in the circumstances - on clearances of 50 yards plus. So, no, Joe's distribution isn't great, but nor is it as bad as it is painted.
Also are you suggesting that in the 6 days that have elapsed since Willy was last seen scuffing the ball straight to the nearest Arsenal or Dortmund player he could find, that he will now have adjusted to Pep's demands? It will take months to bed this system in, and given our current lack of defensive options I want the best shot blocker in the business in nets

 

[Blumers Bloomers]

I'm hoping this is Pep's way of making sure that Hart is a fighter because we have bigger issues elsewhere on the pitch.

My thoughts exactly. It's a great statement to make to the rest of the squad that no one is an automaticstarter and there is no room for complacency.

Might do Joe some good to have some actual competition for his place for once .....Given and Kasper have both been gone a long time

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Hart is a better goalkeeper than ter stegen. he's one of the best keepers in the league still and a city legend. he deserves a chance. i actually think he's alright at distribution, but if we are selling a top keeper based on that. i find it bizarre, when he's one of the best for keeping the ball out of the net. he can learn to play the pep way,

look at willy the other week absolutely terrible with the ball. I say give him till january if pep really doesnt fancy him then maybe change., imo he's one of the last players we should be looking to replace

 

[FanchesterCity]

Who mentioned 'sweeper keeper'? You stated that Valdes didn't play the ball out whilst at barca and they were somewhat successful anyway... This is totally false, I'd hazard a guess you haven't read peps book?? It was one of the first things he implemented and it evolved from his experience of playing in Italy....

There's a fine margin between improving your capabilities and excelling at them, if you've not noticed that Pep demands the best then improving in this instance, isn't good enough... It's categorically the right decision, Joe has been stale for a couple of seasons.

Some of us have been discussing this long before Pep was announced and shot down for it, now coincidentally he's here and something is afoot!!

'Sweeper keeper' is what the large majority of fans are now claiming that Hart can never be (or certainly not excel at). My point isn't that he can be, but that I believe there are more issues than that alone, and not being such a keeper isn't crippling to a team. His distribution is more problematic than any lack of confidence with the ball at his feet (imo).
Conversely, IF we are to bring in a 'sweeper keeper' - it still has to be an overall upgrade on Hart rather than just for this attribute alone. No point in having a sweeper keeper if he's still picking the ball out of the back of the net too often.

I don't disagree that Hart's been stale - but that's true of half the first team. Kolarov / Clichy / Toure / Navas / Bony (18 months) / Nasri could all be accused of the same.

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

Please sell Joe Hart
Crappy Joey Hart
Punches without catching in his hands.
'Cos if you sell Joe Hart,
Crappy Joey Hart
We might get a goalie who understands.

I look forward to you singing your ditty after Willy scuffs the ball straight to Jermain Defoe half a dozen times today, and/or makes a pig's ear of every cross and corner like he did at Spurs last season...... ;-)

 

[Dubai Blue]

Of course he'd have seen what was going on, but at the same time, until you can coach him, you can't know for sure what improvements are possible and what aren't.
The rumours about Pep not fancying Joe have been around for at least a year - the press were speculating on it during Pellegrini's tenure. However if we've been aware that Pep didn't fancy him, then shouldn't we have been seeking a replacement for some time too?

Every player can be upgraded, and Hart should be no exception, but he's not our weakest link (imo). There are more pressing matters at the back than just Joe!

On the face of it, it seems that Joe isn't being given a chance to prove that he can actually do it. But could it be the case that Pep had spotted this flaw a while back and made it clear to him last season that he had to work on it and improve by the time he turned up? Maybe Joe didn't take this advice on board and that has pissed the manager off. I'm just speculating because it doesn't seem right to not at least give him a few weeks to work at it.

 

[cibaman]

Hart is a better goalkeeper than ter stegen. he's one of the best keepers in the league still and a city legend. he deserves a chance. i actually think he's alright at distribution, but if we are selling a top keeper based on that. i find it bizarre, when he's one of the best for keeping the ball out of the net. he can learn to play the pep way,

look at willy the other week absolutely terrible with the ball. I say give him till january if pep really doesnt fancy him then maybe change., imo he's one of the last players we should be looking to replace

Hart had a shocker in the 1-3 defeat against Bayern in 2013. Perhaps that's also influencing Pep's thinking?

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Hart had a shocker in the 1-3 defeat against Bayern in 2013. Perhaps that's also influencing Pep's thinking?

maybe so. but I've seen games last year where nuer had a shocker and literally gave goals away, same with ter stegen. i dont think hart should be judged on one game. his overall city career he's been great

 

[Zin 'messiah' Zimmer]

'Sweeper keeper' is what the large majority of fans are now claiming that Hart can never be (or certainly not excel at). My point isn't that he can be, but that I believe there are more issues than that alone, and not being such a keeper isn't crippling to a team. His distribution is more problematic than any lack of confidence with the ball at his feet (imo).
Conversely, IF we are to bring in a 'sweeper keeper' - it still has to be an overall upgrade on Hart rather than just for this attribute alone. No point in having a sweeper keeper if he's still picking the ball out of the back of the net too often.

I don't disagree that Hart's been stale - but that's true of half the first team. Kolarov / Clichy / Toure / Navas / Bony (18 months) / Nasri could all be accused of the same.

How many of the above are integral to the system??

It's also integral for his keeper to be able to play out, I thought we'd established this?? There's a reason he has had the best defensive unit every year he has been a coach.. Valdes wasnt half the shot stopper hart is, what he possessed was an ability to keep hold of the ball without panicking. So there is no dilemma, the fundamentals to how we defend starts from the back and not allowing the opposition much possession, you can't have that with a keeper who is average with his distribution!!

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

How many of the above are integral to the system??

It's also integral for his keeper to be able to play out, I thought we'd established this?? There's a reason he has had the best defensive unit every year he has been a coach.. Valdes wasnt half the shot stopper hart is, what he possessed was an ability to keep hold of the ball without panicking. So there is no dilemma, the fundamentals to how we defend starts from the back and not allowing the opposition much possession, you can't have that with a keeper who is average with his distribution!!

so you'd be alright with an average goalkeeper, along as he can pass out the back ? ( which hart can do imo ).

 

[mcfc482]

How many of the above are integral to the system??

It's also integral for his keeper to be able to play out, I thought we'd established this?? There's a reason he has had the best defensive unit every year he has been a coach.. Valdes wasnt half the shot stopper hart is, what he possessed was an ability to keep hold of the ball without panicking. So there is no dilemma, the fundamentals to how we defend starts from the back and not allowing the opposition much possession, you can't have that with a keeper who is average with his distribution!!

I am still amazed at people underrating Valdes. Valdes was also en excellent shot stopper and on 1 v 1's. There werent many GKs better than him when he was at Barcelona and if we signed him this season he would be first choice if it were between the 3 we have now.

 

[cibaman]

maybe so. but I've seen games last year where nuer had a shocker and literally gave goals away, same with ter stegen. i dont think hart should be judged on one game. his overall city career he's been great

I agree, but first impressions count. That game will have stuck in Pep's memory bank, shaped his initial impression of Hart as a keeper. Add to that Joe's most recent form in the Euro's and that he doesn't have the main attributes that Pep values, then it wouldn't be too surprising if Pep doesn't rate him as highly as many.

 

[Zin 'messiah' Zimmer]

so you'd be alright with an average goalkeeper, along as he can pass out the back ? ( which hart can do imo ).

He can't, but you're entitled to your opinion...

It's totally naive to discount what having a ball playing keeper does to your defensive line. We invite the opposition on, not launch the bastard ball to the half way line to the shortest guy on the pitch.

The team and style is about to evolve how you, and many others, view football as you can't have much experience of watching Pep teams and tactics. An 'average' keeper, as you put it, who can play comfortably, will find his way into a Pep team over a great shot stopper (which is what hart is) ....

 

[JPAMCR]

IF the rumour is true I think it's a bad move by Pep. Will create a bit of a media circus around the club and destabilise us when we need a steady start. If he's going to drop joe he should wait until we've got his replacement. Willy isn't good enough.

 

[Heart.net]

I agree, but first impressions count. That game will have stuck in Pep's memory bank, shaped his initial impression of Hart as a keeper. Add to that Joe's most recent form in the Euro's and that he doesn't have the main attributes that Pep values, then it wouldn't be too surprising if Pep doesn't rate him as highly as many.

*edit* I'm an idiot, i didn't read the initial post.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

He can't, but you're entitled to your opinion...

It's totally naive to discount what having a ball playing keeper does to your defensive line. We invite the opposition on, not launch the bastard ball to the half way line to the shortest guy on the pitch.

The team and style is about to evolve how you, and many others, view football as you can't have much experience of watching Pep teams and tactics. An 'average' keeper, as you put it, who can play comfortably, will find his way into a Pep team over a great shot stopper (which is what hart is) ....

I've not discounted what a ball playing keeper can do for us. you referred to valdes who is an average keeper, but because he can play out the back thats alright. i just dont see the need to change one of the best keepers in the league because he can't pass a 40 years ball straight to someones feet. if your talking about simple passing out the back hart can do that. what will help him thus year is actually having defenders comfortable with the ball and who want to be passed to.