Ilkay Gundogan - 2016/17 Performances

[kaz7]

Hopefully after the break he will be ready for 90mins,shame he has been called up for germany games

 

[ono]

Not as much quality on the ball as i expected. I'm assuming he isn't quite fit yet or on the same wave length as the rest of the team. Seems to overhit fairly straight forward passes. Maybe he thinks everyone is as fast as Reus and Aubamayang

 

[Bluewonder]

His final ball was slightly off today, which isn't surprising considering he came into a game of real intensity and still probably isn't match fit. You can just tell he oozes quality, though. Will prove an excellent signing.

 

[Tevez City]

I will be happy if he can be as good as Nasri.

 

[MCFC_4Heatons]

I think he may be a little surprised by the intensity of the PL ... May take him a while to adjust. Although he was very good on debut but seems to have dropped off a bit ....

 

[Dax777]

That pass was great but I just don't see Dinho making a lot of those through balls to Aguero that Kev and Silva do on a consistent basis. Our 8s need that final ball delivery, otherwise we'll just end up with a lot of possession and no end result. It's no coincidence that our form started to peak when Kev started to pick up his form as well.

Yes, and Kev is probably a better 8 at picking out passes than Dihno. I think Dihno, David and Kev all bring something different to the position. David brings possession and control, Kev brings directness, Dihno brings aggression. I think most underrate what Dihno brings to the table.

Again, I'd like to point out Vidal doesn't have the happy fancy feet of Silva yet he excels at a similar position. I think GDihno will too if played there.

In my opinion "our most dangerous football happens when we turn the other team over in their half. And our worst football happens when we cannot keep possession in our half."


The issue I believe is that most don't believe the above statement. I do. And if those statements are true, then Dihno at 8 and Gundogan at 6 becomes easy to see. Dihno presence increases the # of times we turn the other team over and Gundogan increases our ability to keep possession in our half.

I don't expect Dihno to make Silva and Kev like split passes as much as both do, but at the same time when playing with Kev I expect him to find himself at the end of those passes more often than Silva ever does. And when playing with Silva, i expect him to cause more turnovers than Kev ever does.

The way they'll play the position will be different, but no less effective. Personally, I think it will be more effective.

 

[Terra Passenger]

Not as much quality on the ball as i expected. I'm assuming he isn't quite fit yet or on the same wave length as the rest of the team. Seems to overhit fairly straight forward passes. Maybe he thinks everyone is as fast as Reus and Aubamayang

I put this down to him not having played much recently and coming into a high intensity match. Gundogan just needs some game time to prove his worth.

 

[Terra Passenger]

Yes, and Kev is probably a better 8 at picking out passes than Dihno. I think Dihno, David and Kev all bring something different to the position. David brings possession and control, Kev brings directness, Dihno brings aggression. I think most underrate what Dihno brings to the table.

Again, I'd like to point out Vidal doesn't have the happy fancy feet of Silva yet he excels at a similar position. I think GDihno will too if played there.

In my opinion "our most dangerous football happens when we turn the other team over in their half. And our worst football happens when we cannot keep possession in our half."


The issue I believe is that most don't believe the above statement. I do. And if those statements are true, then Dihno at 8 and Gundogan at 6 becomes easy to see. Dihno presence increases the # of times we turn the other team over and Gundogan increases our ability to keep possession in our half.

I don't expect Dihno to make Silva and Kev like split passes as much as both do, but at the same time when playing with Kev I expect him to find himself at the end of those passes more often than Silva ever does. And when playing with Silva, i expect him to cause more turnovers than Kev ever does.

The way they'll play the position will be different, but no less effective. Personally, I think it will be more effective.

Well at least you stick stubbornly to your guns.

Pep's system is a high press - counterpressing if you will - approach; when the ball turns over high up the pitch our side is in excellent tactical position. Wherever the ball turns over there's going to be a man near to begin the press while his teammates cut off passing options.

We don't need Fernandinho playing high up in hopes that he'll - by some stroke of fortune - be the man nearest the ball if it's turned over.

What we do need up top in our 8's is the ability to break down defenses - sometimes on the counter with speed and incisive passing - in this role Fernandinho fits - but also against set defenses, where intricate one-twos or the ability to beat players one-on-one or to make the audacious pass that no one expects - Fernandinho lacks the quality here that Silva, KDB and Gundogan possess - is a requisite skill.

As for the 6 - the 6 needs to cover for the back line. When we play it out from the back, the 6 is often the man receiving the ball from the keeper or a centerback. In this situation he must be an excellent passer moving the ball forward quickly to continue the buildup.

The 6 needs great defensive awareness especially the way we play with centerbacks given license to venture forward when the time is right.

This is the skillset that our 6 needs - Fernandinho fills this role perfectly.

The suggestion to play our best defender up in an 8 role and move someone who's not nearly as good at defending into the 6 role makes no sense at all.

I'll leave it here - the above will likely have no impact whatsoever on your opinion.

 

[Dax777]

Well at least you stick stubbornly to your guns.

Pep's system is a high press - counterpressing if you will - approach; when the ball turns over high up the pitch our side is in excellent tactical position. Wherever the ball turns over there's going to be a man near to begin the press while his teammates cut off passing options.

We don't need Fernandinho playing high up in hopes that he'll - by some stroke of fortune - be the man nearest the ball if it's turned over

Again, your ability to regurgitation of Pep's philosophy is noted, but your understanding of it in practical terms is lacking. The goal of having Fernandihno higher up is not "in hopes that he'll be the man nearest the ball", that would be silly.

Rather, regardless of who is closest to the ball when we lose it in their half, our ability to retrieve it back quickly is greatly increased with Dihno being a part of the initial unit pressing or cutting out lanes. In comparison to Kev or David or anyone else in our front 6, he is infinitely superior. That's just a fact. It matters not what part he plays in that process whether the closest to start the press or cut off options. He is better at every single portion of that process than anyone else. So therefore the success of the overall philosophy is increased with him in that role.

I don't know why you find that hard to understand. It's not even controversial.

What we do need up top in our 8's is the ability to break down defenses - sometimes on the counter with speed and incisive passing - in this role Fernandinho fits - but also against set defenses, where intricate one-twos or the ability to beat players one-on-one or to make the audacious pass that no one expects - Fernandinho lacks the quality here that Silva, KDB and Gundogan possess - is a requisite skill.

At least you are slowly coming around. You now admit Dihno is capable of atvleast one part of the job of an 8.
As for what we do when we have the ball, again here you've overstated the importance of the unusual and understated the common. Sublime defense cracking passing happens about so infrequently, say about 10% of the time or less. For the most part it's basic moving the ball from side to side to create creases exploit.Dihno can do that capably. He is also better at moving into those spaces that will be exploited. And while not as accomplished as Silva, he too is quite capable of the sublime.

So counterintuitively, our ability to break down set defenses is partly dependent on the great passing and partly dependent on great movement by players to create that passing lane. Dihno is very good at that movement part and adequate at the passing...

As for the 6 - the 6 needs to cover for the back line. When we play it out from the back, the 6 is often the man receiving the ball from the keeper or a centerback. In this situation he must be an excellent passer moving the ball forward quickly to continue the buildup.

The 6 needs great defensive awareness especially the way we play with centerbacks given license to venture forward when the time is right.

This is the skillset that our 6 needs - Fernandinho fills this role perfectly.

The suggestion to play our best defender up in an 8 role and move someone who's not nearly as good at defending into the 6 role makes no sense at all.

I'll leave it here - the above will likely have no impact whatsoever on your opinion.

Can you explain why Vidal played the 8 at Bayern and Alonso played the 6? As according to the Quoted above, that will make no Sense. And also why did Vidal and Machisio play the 8 roles at Juve while the inferior defender Pirlo played the 6.

You strike me as one of those people who only believe what they've seen already. But can't imagine it being different. I appreciate that. But here is the kicker - Pep has done similar before! It's not really new or out of the box. Pretty basic actually.

 

[Delphacito]

Yes, and Kev is probably a better 8 at picking out passes than Dihno. I think Dihno, David and Kev all bring something different to the position. David brings possession and control, Kev brings directness, Dihno brings aggression. I think most underrate what Dihno brings to the table.

Again, I'd like to point out Vidal doesn't have the happy fancy feet of Silva yet he excels at a similar position. I think GDihno will too if played there.

In my opinion "our most dangerous football happens when we turn the other team over in their half. And our worst football happens when we cannot keep possession in our half."


The issue I believe is that most don't believe the above statement. I do. And if those statements are true, then Dihno at 8 and Gundogan at 6 becomes easy to see. Dihno presence increases the # of times we turn the other team over and Gundogan increases our ability to keep possession in our half.

I don't expect Dihno to make Silva and Kev like split passes as much as both do, but at the same time when playing with Kev I expect him to find himself at the end of those passes more often than Silva ever does. And when playing with Silva, i expect him to cause more turnovers than Kev ever does.

The way they'll play the position will be different, but no less effective. Personally, I think it will be more effective.

I do believe that statement - the problem is that the amount of turnovers we're going to cause (in the opponent's half) is less than the amount of times we're going to keep the ball. If anything, having Dinho at the 6 position will give more results in terms of creating turnovers as the philosophy is to take out the passing lanes and the first receiver and not the passer itself. When we had Kev and Silva and Dinho altogether, as soon as we lose the ball Kev and Silva would hound the passer and Dinho is waiting to intercept the pass from the passer. This happened many many times this season as Dinho would be waiting at the center of the pitch to intercept those passes.

If you took my statement as Dinho not being able to play an 8 at all, that wasn't my intention. Dinho can definitely play an 8, but I don't think he will be most effective there. Would you agree that Dinho as 6, with Gundogan/Silva/Kev as the 8s is our best set up?

The problem with Dinho playing the 8 is also the fact that our free-roaming 8s are the playmakers, and Dinho is not a playmaker. We saw against the Spurs that our midfield is dead as soon as Silva is ganged up by Wanyama and Sissoko. If Gundogan/Kev is playing the other 8 spot, they wouldn't be able to gang up on Silva as the other would be open and can do the job just as well.

I know you mentioned Vidal but Vidal is superior to Fernandinho in terms of passing as well as shooting/finishing, which is what's needed as our 8s. Moreover I think our set up and way of playing is different than Bayern, even though we have the same way of playing.