Nicolas Otamendi - 2016/17 performances

[domalino]

Does it? That new player might be to replace Vinnie.

Are we being linked to 3rd choice CB's or are we being linked to everyone £40m+?

 

[mosssideblue]

Are we being linked to 3rd choice CB's or are we being linked to everyone £40m+?

My point was you have no idea as to the reasons we are looking at CB. Yes, you might not rate Ota, but your opinion is as valid as those that do.

 

[Dax777]

That logic is so shit it actually hurts.

Plenty of shit players have been in TOTY and everbody knows that. Using his selection to try and say Otamendi is a great CB is complete and utter nonsense.

Ok. Can you give some examples?

 

[domalino]

Ok. Can you give some examples?

.

Glenn Johnson, Ashley Young in 2009

Darren Fletcher 2010 picked over....Lampard, Barry, Gerrard...

Coloccini and Scott Parker in 2012

Sturridge in 13/14 over Aguero

Need I go on?

 

[Dax777]

.

Glenn Johnson, Ashley Young in 2009

Darren Fletcher 2010 picked over....Lampard, Barry, Gerrard...

Coloccini and Scott Parker in 2012

Sturridge in 13/14 over Aguero

Need I go on?

It seems you don't understand the argument. I sensed that was the problem.

Again, none of the above players are shit. They were all very good the tear they made team of the year.

That Lampard or Gerrard are better than Fletcher only suggest they were unlucky to not make the team. This however doesn't change the fact that Fletcher was good.

You can apply the same logic to all the above players. Colochini is a fantastic footballer. Parker is a very good player. Every one you've mentioned was very good.

Were they deserving of TOTY? That's arguable. But whether they were very good, isn't? They were.

So again I ask, give me names of Shit players, i.e poor players who made the TOTY. Not good players who should have been beaten out by other good players.

Otamendi made La Liga team of the year voted by people. If you check Whoscore.com that uses an algorithm (I.e reduces bias) rightnow, he again is currently in the 11 of the season based on algorithm. He was for most of last season too.

So humans chose him 2 years ago. And computer algorithm continue to pick him, but let's ignore these facts and conclude your tortured logic is right that shit players get picked in the team of the year all the time. And your proof is pointing out better players who weren't picked?

Very convincing I tell yah.

 

[domalino]

It seems you don't understand the argument. I sensed that was the problem.

Again, none of the above players are shit. They were all very good the tear they made team of the year.

That Lampard or Gerrard are better than Fletcher only suggest they were unlucky to not make the team. This however doesn't change the fact that Fletcher was good.

You can apply the same logic to all the above players. Colochini is a fantastic footballer. Parker is a very good player. Every one you've mentioned was very good.

Were they deserving of TOTY? That's arguable. But whether they were very good, isn't? They were.

So again I ask, give me names of Shit players, i.e poor players who made the TOTY. Not good players who should have been beaten out by other good players.

Otamendi made La Liga team of the year voted by people. If you check Whoscore.com that uses an algorithm (I.e reduces bias) rightnow, he again is currently in the 11 of the season based on algorithm. He was for most of last season too.

So humans chose him 2 years ago. And computer algorithm continue to pick him, but let's ignore these facts and conclude your tortured logic is right that shit players get picked in the team of the year all the time. And your proof is pointing out better players who weren't picked?

Very convincing I tell yah.

Yes, I see the problem. it's right here:

Colochini is a fantastic footballer

If you actually think that, then you are obviously completely unable to actually judge the quality of a centreback and no wonder you think Otamendi is good enough.

And I know you're an american, but do you really have to play up to the Clichés about your country men by trying to use Whoscored.com as a gauge of quality?

 

[kaz7]

It seems you don't understand the argument. I sensed that was the problem.

Again, none of the above players are shit. They were all very good the tear they made team of the year.

That Lampard or Gerrard are better than Fletcher only suggest they were unlucky to not make the team. This however doesn't change the fact that Fletcher was good.

You can apply the same logic to all the above players. Colochini is a fantastic footballer. Parker is a very good player. Every one you've mentioned was very good.

Were they deserving of TOTY? That's arguable. But whether they were very good, isn't? They were.

So again I ask, give me names of Shit players, i.e poor players who made the TOTY. Not good players who should have been beaten out by other good players.

Otamendi made La Liga team of the year voted by people. If you check Whoscore.com that uses an algorithm (I.e reduces bias) rightnow, he again is currently in the 11 of the season based on algorithm. He was for most of last season too.

So humans chose him 2 years ago. And computer algorithm continue to pick him, but let's ignore these facts and conclude your tortured logic is right that shit players get picked in the team of the year all the time. And your proof is pointing out better players who weren't picked?

Very convincing I tell yah.

Seems you don't know every player on the planet after all or how Sky and papers influences who gets what award

 

[Dax777]

Seems you don't know every player on the planet after all or how Sky and papers influences who gets what award

I get that. But here is the problem, no amount of influencing will make any player who is shit to get into the TOTY.

Influence might cause one good player to get in ahead of another good player who most consider to be better, but influence will not get a clearly bad player (I.e. shit player) in.


Thus, if you make the list ( via influence or otherwise) it's because you are good.

It is a simple necessary vs sufficient condition issue.

In order to be in the team of the year, it is necessary that you have a good season. No player who has had a bad season has ever been in the team of the year. None. However, having a good season is not sufficient.

Thus, while only players that have a good season get in, not all players that have a good season will. Some will not because they were overlooked and others will not because other players in their position also had good seasons and were deemed better. And some will not coz the media influenced the vote in favor of someone who didn't do as well as they did.

But everyone who gets in, had a good season. No one who had a bad season EVER gets in. None.

Thus, when someone has been on a season's team of the year, you can conclude without fear that they in fact had a very good season.

Whether it was Parker, Colochini, Johnson, or the United cheat, they all had good seasons the year they made the team. Of that there is no question.

As for Bias and influence, generally speaking bias an influence tend to accrue to big teams. So in England you'd historically see an undeserving Rag, Tarquin, or sister shagger on the list. In Spain Real and Barca tend to get that advantage.

So when a non-Spanish player on neither of the big teams makes tge Team of the year, the chances that such a player didn't have a great year is practically Zero.

Now let's talk about Otamendi :)

 

[kaz7]

I gave up after the first line

 

[Colin Bells Boots]

I gave up after the first line

It's difficult trying to explain something to somebody who knows absolutely everything about all subjects under the sun.

Your approach has so much merit .

 

[Otamendi's Beard]

You said that the system and style of play, enacted by the manager, was the reason he doesn't look good.

You're wrong - it's him, and the fact we're clearly looking for a new partner for Stones says it all.

No you're wrong. Saying the system that we play can subject our players to pressure is not criticism of our manager, it's simply an observation of the other side of our play.

He's a better defender than Stones so I doubt he's going anywhere.

 

[mcfcphil]

He goes from magnificent to shite and back again in the space of one attack.
The amount of times I've said "well played otamendi" and then "fucking hell otamendi" within 10 seconds is incredible.

 

[BlueDeadHead]

My point was you have no idea as to the reasons we are looking at CB. Yes, you might not rate Ota, but your opinion is as valid as those that do.

Your point is fair but is it relevant? I think we all can agree that we are looking for a CB and that we wanted one of Laporte and Bonucci in addition to Stones in the summer.

I actually think you are both right. I think we are buying a CB to replace both Ota and Kompany. That is not to say that I think Ota will be sold; but I think he is going to move down the pecking order assuming we get one of Pep's big CB targets. Kompany I do think will go. I just don't think we can justify the squad spot. It would not surprise me if in August our 4 CBs are:

Stones
Laporte
Ota
Tosin

In that order.

 

[mosssideblue]

Your point is fair but is it relevant? I think we all can agree that we are looking for a CB and that we wanted one of Laporte and Bonucci in addition to Stones in the summer.

I actually think you are both right. I think we are buying a CB to replace both Ota and Kompany. That is not to say that I think Ota will be sold; but I think he is going to move down the pecking order assuming we get one of Pep's big CB targets. Kompany I do think will go. I just don't think we can justify the squad spot. It would not surprise me if in August our 4 CBs are:

Stones
Laporte
Ota
Tosin

In that order.

I take onboard your view and thanks for a reasoned response. I do agree that we were looking for reinforcements but Laporte and Bonnuci could not be enticed last time around, so what confidence do you have this time viz Laporte?

 

[BlueDeadHead]

I take onboard your view and thanks for a reasoned response. I do agree that we were looking for reinforcements but Laporte and Bonnuci could not be enticed last time around, so what confidence do you have this time viz Laporte?

Honestly none. Its wishful thinking and I think whatever happened last summer smells weird. It seemed he wanted to come. When Pep specifically wants you to come and become the heart of his defense it is hard to say no. That makes me wonder what the real motivations were last Summer.

He isn't really a Basque so I don't think that is it.

He isn't Spanish so that isn't it.

My best guess is it is down to 1 of 3 things or a combination.

1) He was injured and was not going to recover before the season started and wanted to get completely back to his best before making the BIG move of his career.

2) Loyalty to Bilbao. He got a new contract and makes more money this year but his buyout is still reasonable and something that we can easily trigger if we want to.

3) Waiting for Barca to come for him.

I am hoping it is a combination of 1 and 2. He recovers his form and gives Bilbao a little extra before he comes here.

What I DON'T believe is that a player of Laporte's talent is going to spend his career in Bilbao.

Regardless, if Laporte or Bonucci are not available, I expect we will know before the summer and have other targets of similar stature lined up. We simply have no choice...we have to buy a CB this summer unless Vinny has some sort of magical recovery.

 

[Eslam elcity]

Otamendi is a world class defender and we are lucky by him .
new partner to stones ??? wowwww , despite this frequent disastrous faults frpm stones , he is still viewed by some fans is better then otamendi !!
It seems the natoinality plays an important role !

 

[MarsLlama]

Otamendi got more stick for missing the tackle against Suarez than Stones got for passing it to Suarez in the first place. For me that sums it up.

 

[mosssideblue]

Otamendi is a world class defender and we are lucky by him .
new partner to stones ??? wowwww , despite this frequent disastrous faults frpm stones , he is still viewed by some fans is better then otamendi !!
It seems the natoinality plays an important role !

Today, I would agree that Ota is better than Stones (and with his age and experience, he should be).

 

[ADegenerate]

That video, as any highlight reel of any player, is devoid of context though. Some of the defending in there is basic shit I'd expect a league one player to do regularly. The other side of the coin is, for example, for all those Arsenal away highlights; he was utter fucking crap in that match, so much so he missed more than he made as he was constantly out of position. Saying it happened occasionally last season is a laugh, it happened more often than not. This season less so but it's still a glaring weakness to the point we need better.

Agreed. I just wanted to show some of the positives to the volatility of his style. I'll defend Nico but not blindly. I'll always take squad improvement over any loyalty that I have towards individual players (Joe :( for example). Tell me what players are even available that IMMEDIATELY come in and slot in over him? The big name that keeps getting thrown around at the moment is Van Dijk. Is he a lock to come into the X1 immediately? Is the probability high that Stones/Van Dijk is the partnership for the next 5+ years? I don't think it is. So why roll the dice on another 30m plus centerback? The mail reported today that we aren't going for a CB this winter and personally I think that's the right decision.

I'm basically just trying to point out that we have a pretty good one right now and that we need to hold out and make sure that the NEXT one we buy is the one that we're confident enough in to be the long term solution.

 

[ADegenerate]

Using La Liga team of the year to say Otamendi is great is like using the Premier League team of the year to say Aguero's shite - he's never been in it afterall.

I never said Otamendi was great. I just think he's not given the credit he deserves. I also wasn't trying to use that to solidify any arguments about his quality. It's just another angle to the point that I'm trying to make...in that his volatility is appreciated and respected. You either like what he has to offer or you don't... I don't think many people are on the fence with him.