prestonibbo_mcfc
Well-Known Member
It's not just a problem with him. We seem to instinctively look to go backwards in a lot of attacking situations.
I think it must be a confidence and fear of failure problem.
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It's not just a problem with him. We seem to instinctively look to go backwards in a lot of attacking situations.
I think it must be a confidence and fear of failure problem.
Stop focusing on united or any other club.
Our dealings have been awful for both incoming and outgoing transfers for years now.
Moving forward we can't afford to give txiki any more money to throw away.
It's not just the money it's the time we are wasting buying players and finding out they aren't good enough when another season has come and gone before we try out a new cb etc.
The whole recruitment team needs a massive shake up.
Talking garbage Sterling Stones KDb Gundogan good buys! All clubs make mistakes in the transfer market. If want bring the scum up for the example of spending half fucking billion and being shite I can just so i can call the fkkers SCUM.
Exeter Blue I am here
Well-Known Member
Yes.
You're right, but only up to a point in my book. Yesterday was something of a watershed moment for me. Against Chelsea we were the better team and should have won, and even at Klanfield we could have clawed our way back in, but yesterday had a feel of inevitably about it after no more than about 10 minutes. Defensively it was an even bigger shambles than Leicester and on that score the stats are racking up and telling a story. 9 wins from our last 22 games in all competitions. Going 1-0 down in 14 of those 22 games (8 times inside the first 15 minutes). Conceding 13 goals from the last 21 shots on target against us. Conceding to the opposition's first shot on target in 7 of the last 11 matches. There's only so much opprobrium you can heap on the players. They are all one year older than last season, not 10. We were poor defensively under Pellegrini, but what I've seen at the back this season has frequently been even worse. Yes, they're learning a new system (although increasingly I'm finding hard to actually decipher what that is), yes, it takes time, but - and perhaps because I've had far less previous exposure to Pep than you - I'm still surprised by the degree of faith on here in his preferred "system" and the general confidence, bordering on unswerving belief, that he will be able to make it work satisfactorily in this league, where everyone parks the bus, where everyone has a big, powerful lummox up front to relieve the pressure, and where everyone works like navvies against us. Bottom line though, Pep is the coach, and by general consensus the best in the business, and yet 30 odd games into the season our defence is all too frequently an absolute shambles and, crucially, showing precious little sign of improvement.
Whose fault is it that we started the season with 4 full backs well into their 30's, and with just 3 centre halves (and one of them the broken wreck that is Vincent Kompany), and with just 2 recognised strikers (and one of those a barely tested 19 year old Nigerian kid), and who decided that swapping a generally excellent and physically imposing keeper for arguably the most unconvincing shot stopper we've had at the club since Martyn Margetson was a good idea? I'm not saying it's all on Pep, indeed like you I believe it's 70% due to inheriting an ageing squad that can't do all the things he wants, but he has to cop some of the blame for what's going on. He spent £150m in the summer and, via Txixi, has been in de facto control of the comings and goings for over a year now. The players he did bring in were clearly purchased with a view to playing a certain way (including Bravo), but how are we to assess the judgement behind those purchases when 15 games into the season, the manager expresses surprise that everyone simply parks the bus against us, rendering our diddyman attacking assets neutral at a stroke, and then bypasses our press by the expedient means of lumping it over the top, where our comfortable in possession, but none too imposing physically and frequently exposed, centre halves find themselves getting out-jumped, outpaced and out muscled on a fairly regular basis. Most Blues could have told him that was going to happen, and indeed I relayed my fears to you in the summer about the prospect of the majority of teams in the league setting up against us like Celtic did in successive seasons against Barca (albeit that Vilanova was in charge for the second round I think, although they were still playing the Barca "way") in the Chimps League, beating them at Parkhead in precisely the way Everton did us yesterday, and only going down 2-1 and 1-0 to very late goals in 2 of the other fixtures. How could that have come as a surprise to him, and particularly to Txixi, who has been watching Premier League football non-stop for the last 2 and a half years?
Personally I think we're in relatively deep lumber at the moment and can't afford to carry on getting walloped in the fashion we did yesterday, when the players looked rudderless, and Pep shell shocked. He needs to buy a centre half, a left back, a defensive midfield powerhouse and a physically imposing striker in this window, if we are to have any real prospect of avoiding frequent repetitions of the events at Woodison and finishing 6th in a 6th horse race, and for his own sake if no-one else's Bravo has to be dropped. I don't doubt there will be accusations (not from you) of my being led by the media, but I hate the idea of fixed systems in this league, because they're only ever viable until someone figures out the antidote. You have to be able to play in a variety of ways and right now we just don't seem able to. We're great when the opposition tries to take the game to us and leaves oceans of space for KDB and Spanish Dave to have fun in, but when they set out to frustrate then the outcome is fairly predictable. Arsenal play decent football, not dissimilar to us you might argue, but how many times have they dug out last gasp victories this season by throwing the ball over to that big fucker Giroud? 4? 5? 6? City by contrast haven't scored a single late winner, unless you count the own goal against Sunderland on the opening day. That's how easily thwarted we are, and that shouldn't be the case when you've got players like Aguero, Silva, Ya Ya, KDB and the unfortunately now injured Gundogan at your disposal. I make no long term prediction and indeed no real comment on Pep (adverse or positive) at this stage, as the man has to be given a chance in this ultra competitive league, and there have been enough encouraging signs going forward to suggest he will get it right. Based on what I've seen this season so far overall however, I'd say that the successful implementation of Plan Pep is going to be far harder than anyone first thought, and thus far (defensively at least) it isn't just the players who've been below par
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steviemc
Well-Known Member
That clip does sum up the good and bad. We retain possession instead of hoofing it away, as Hart probably would have done. The concept is to draw the Everton press further forward and create space behind that front group. We then beat the press but Yaya turns backwards, instead of moving the ball forward, and puts the ball in front of the high press with all Everton players behind the ball without them needing to do anything to achieve that.
So we start from scratch again and end up giving away a throw. You could just as well argue that it would have been better for Bravo to hoof the ball straight out of play so we could press Everton higher up the pitch, which is a tactic Leicester used against us last season at the Etihad. Schmeichel kept hoofing the ball into touch, which had people laughing at him, but that was a deliberate move so they could regroup, relieve the pressure on them and move their defensive press higher up the pitch.
We should all know what Pep is looking to do but possession per se is not the issue; doing something with that possession is. And the whole crux of the Pep philosophy is that, when you lose possession, you get it back quickly or you get into defensive shape in front of the opposition. At the moment we're:
Those are the problems.
- Doing nothing threatening in the last third when in possession.
- Not winning the ball back in the first few seconds after we lose it.
- Failing to form an effective defensive cordon when we fail to retrieve the ball.
Good summary.
Exeter Blue I am here
Well-Known Member
Damo put this on twitter for different reasons but it's a good clip to use to explain how close we are and what we're doing wrong.
Our use of Bravo and passing side to side and back to the GK draws Everton out. Pause the video at 02:28 game time. When Clichy gets the ball we've used Everton's press to create a situation where they have seven players focused to one area of the pitch. Clichy chooses the wrong option and passes to Sterling, who has no 'out' ball. He doesn't have a single option, and we concede a throw. If, Clichy is thinking quick enough (the biggest problem we have with fullbacks) he can choose a little pass to KDB to run onto, a pass into Yaya or a pass to Zabba. If he chooses the KdB or Yaya option, pause the video again at 02:31 when Silva comes into Picture. Forget where Sterling is now, as he wouldn't be there unless Clichy had passed to him, but look how much space Silva is in and he has a 3 on 3 with Aguero and Sterling.
If Clichy makes that pass to Yaya, Yaya can play first time to Silva and we've completely turned Everton inside out. Instead, he takes the wrong touch, has to then go down the line to a player with no options and the move is over. In fairness to Clichy, the ball back to him from Yaya is poor and he needs a touch, but his touch is poor.
I could be wrong, but this is how I see Pep's vision of how he wants to play, breaking down at the crucial moment because of bad decision making or passing execution.
We're still shit in both boxes, that's a given, but we're not a million miles away with the build up. We created a fantastic situation there and destroyed it ourselves, and it happens multiple times per game.
Unfortunately the clip won't work on my stupid i-pad, but the text, whilst doubtless an accurate assessment of events, owes a fair bit to hindsight IMO. Footballers at this level deal in milliseconds, having to assess what's in front of them and pick from 3 or 4 different options in an instant. Some are better than others, KDB and Silva in particular having consistently excellent judgment and technique, but frequent mistakes, or the taking of "wrong" options, are as certain as death and taxes for most of the others, and how much that "vision" (for want of a better word) can be improved by coaching is a matter of debate
Talking garbage Sterling Stones KDb Gundogan good buys! All clubs make mistakes in the transfer market. If want bring the scum up for the example of spending half fucking billion and being shite I can just so i can call the fkkers SCUM.
There's no doubt that they're good buys.
But it seems Sane and Sterling both favour the right. If Silva or De Bruyne are used wide, they're both more effective on the right and Navas can only play on the right.
We have signed good players but yesterday we had £60 million of right wingers on the bench. No left sided attacker, no centre back and Delph and a kid to cover a midfield with just YaYa and a washed right back in it.
We have signed some decent players but until Pep and even he's abandonded it, all our key players want to play in the same positions.
These are whom I consider our elite level players.
Stones, Otamendi & Kompany all want to play right sided centre half. All have struggles at left sided centre back.
Sane and Sterling want to play right wing. Sterling has looked dreadful left and Sane prefers the right.m
Fernandinho has no help and hasn't since 2014.
De Bruyne and Silva want to play in the same position. Or in the 100% successful system we've abandoned to accommodate players out of position or due to Fernandinho having zero adequate back up.
Gundogan was shoehorned in. If we played him deep, he was in Fernandinho's way, advanced and he was in Silva's way.
On paper the recruitment has looked good, exciting in fact. but age and positional balance in the squad are not good and for me, that's why under Pellegrini & now Pep we are effective flat track bullies.
If we haven't got Fernandinho we simply can't compete physically in midfield and we resemble Arsenal.
Full squad, all flying we're good enough, miss Kompany we can't defend, miss Fernandinho we can't run. This is not reactionary, it's been the same for two and a half seasons. As one is injury prone to say the least and the other is in his 30's we should really have sorted it.
Last season it was Pellegrini's fault, many calling him all the names under the sun. He was slaughtered for relying on Toure, we'd never see him in a two again. We'd never see him and Fernando together. Any decent manager would walk the league with this squad.
Pellegrini tried the simple system of putting players in their favoured positions. Sometimes we looked great, lovely football. A fast aggressive team walked through us.
Pep has tried everything, sadly he is finding what many have said, a pacey aggressive talented side will normally rip us apart.
Pep is getting no better results in general than Pellegrini, however where Pep is better, he's looking to combat our problem. Adapt & transform us. Something Pellegrini never did.
BVB ripped Mancini's side apart.
Spurs, Liverpool ripped Pellegrini's side apart.
Pep is fairing no better. Despite trying everything.
Said it for 2 years plus now, our squad really has no balance in age or positionally.
Everton & Koeman exposed that. He changed his tactics to expose our weaknesses. Flooded the midfield with energy, pace and directness up top and a tight narrow back 3. Limiting our attacking options. Spurs will do the same.
Who in our current squad has the physical capabilities of matching Wanyama? Dembele? Who's going to track the runs of Ali? YaYa? Zabaleta? Fernando?
Pep loves midfielders and to have any chance Saturday we need to keep the ball away from midfield.
CelesteItis
Well-Known Member
BUT, will we? Agree on everything else.We beat Spurs (who are in second) next week and we move level on points with them. Yes today was bad but supporting City has always been a rollercoaster. We stick by the manager and the team till the death otherwise we're just a bunch of rags.
BamberBridgeBlue
Well-Known Member
Probably the wrong place to post this but.....
Did I just hear Annabelle Tiffin say Everton's teenagers show Manchester City's highly paid stars how to do it? If it had been Manchester United 0 Liverpool 4 there would be no mention of the worlds most expensive player etc etc
Did I just hear Annabelle Tiffin say Everton's teenagers show Manchester City's highly paid stars how to do it? If it had been Manchester United 0 Liverpool 4 there would be no mention of the worlds most expensive player etc etc
Exeter Blue I am here
Well-Known Member
There's no doubt that they're good buys.
But it seems Sane and Sterling both favour the right. If Silva or De Bruyne are used wide, they're both more effective on the right and Navas can only play on the right.
We have signed good players but yesterday we had £60 million of right wingers on the bench. No left sided attacker, no centre back and Delph and a kid to cover a midfield with just YaYa and a washed right back in it.
We have signed some decent players but until Pep and even he's abandonded it, all our key players want to play in the same positions.
These are whom I consider our elite level players.
Stones, Otamendi & Kompany all want to play right sided centre half. All have struggles at left sided centre back.
Sane and Sterling want to play right wing. Sterling has looked dreadful left and Sane prefers the right.m
Fernandinho has no help and hasn't since 2014.
De Bruyne and Silva want to play in the same position. Or in the 100% successful system we've abandoned to accommodate players out of position or due to Fernandinho having zero adequate back up.
Gundogan was shoehorned in. If we played him deep, he was in Fernandinho's way, advanced and he was in Silva's way.
On paper the recruitment has looked good, exciting in fact. but age and positional balance in the squad are not good and for me, that's why under Pellegrini & now Pep we are effective flat track bullies.
If we haven't got Fernandinho we simply can't compete physically in midfield and we resemble Arsenal.
Full squad, all flying we're good enough, miss Kompany we can't defend, miss Fernandinho we can't run. This is not reactionary, it's been the same for two and a half seasons. As one is injury prone to say the least and the other is in his 30's we should really have sorted it.
Last season it was Pellegrini's fault, many calling him all the names under the sun. He was slaughtered for relying on Toure, we'd never see him in a two again. We'd never see him and Fernando together. Any decent manager would walk the league with this squad.
Pellegrini tried the simple system of putting players in their favoured positions. Sometimes we looked great, lovely football. A fast aggressive team walked through us.
Pep has tried everything, sadly he is finding what many have said, a pacey aggressive talented side will normally rip us apart.
Pep is getting no better results in general than Pellegrini, however where Pep is better, he's looking to combat our problem. Adapt & transform us. Something Pellegrini never did.
BVB ripped Mancini's side apart.
Spurs, Liverpool ripped Pellegrini's side apart.
Pep is fairing no better. Despite trying everything.
Said it for 2 years plus now, our squad really has no balance in age or positionally.
Everton & Koeman exposed that. He changed his tactics to expose our weaknesses. Flooded the midfield with energy, pace and directness up top and a tight narrow back 3. Limiting our attacking options. Spurs will do the same.
Who in our current squad has the physical capabilities of matching Wanyama? Dembele? Who's going to track the runs of Ali? YaYa? Zabaleta? Fernando?
Pep loves midfielders and to have any chance Saturday we need to keep the ball away from midfield.
Yup, agree with all of that
Drubas
Well-Known Member
There's no doubt that they're good buys.
But it seems Sane and Sterling both favour the right. If Silva or De Bruyne are used wide, they're both more effective on the right and Navas can only play on the right.
We have signed good players but yesterday we had £60 million of right wingers on the bench. No left sided attacker, no centre back and Delph and a kid to cover a midfield with just YaYa and a washed right back in it.
We have signed some decent players but until Pep and even he's abandonded it, all our key players want to play in the same positions.
These are whom I consider our elite level players.
Stones, Otamendi & Kompany all want to play right sided centre half. All have struggles at left sided centre back.
Sane and Sterling want to play right wing. Sterling has looked dreadful left and Sane prefers the right.m
Fernandinho has no help and hasn't since 2014.
De Bruyne and Silva want to play in the same position. Or in the 100% successful system we've abandoned to accommodate players out of position or due to Fernandinho having zero adequate back up.
Gundogan was shoehorned in. If we played him deep, he was in Fernandinho's way, advanced and he was in Silva's way.
On paper the recruitment has looked good, exciting in fact. but age and positional balance in the squad are not good and for me, that's why under Pellegrini & now Pep we are effective flat track bullies.
If we haven't got Fernandinho we simply can't compete physically in midfield and we resemble Arsenal.
Full squad, all flying we're good enough, miss Kompany we can't defend, miss Fernandinho we can't run. This is not reactionary, it's been the same for two and a half seasons. As one is injury prone to say the least and the other is in his 30's we should really have sorted it.
Last season it was Pellegrini's fault, many calling him all the names under the sun. He was slaughtered for relying on Toure, we'd never see him in a two again. We'd never see him and Fernando together. Any decent manager would walk the league with this squad.
Pellegrini tried the simple system of putting players in their favoured positions. Sometimes we looked great, lovely football. A fast aggressive team walked through us.
Pep has tried everything, sadly he is finding what many have said, a pacey aggressive talented side will normally rip us apart.
Pep is getting no better results in general than Pellegrini, however where Pep is better, he's looking to combat our problem. Adapt & transform us. Something Pellegrini never did.
BVB ripped Mancini's side apart.
Spurs, Liverpool ripped Pellegrini's side apart.
Pep is fairing no better. Despite trying everything.
Said it for 2 years plus now, our squad really has no balance in age or positionally.
Everton & Koeman exposed that. He changed his tactics to expose our weaknesses. Flooded the midfield with energy, pace and directness up top and a tight narrow back 3. Limiting our attacking options. Spurs will do the same.
Who in our current squad has the physical capabilities of matching Wanyama? Dembele? Who's going to track the runs of Ali? YaYa? Zabaleta? Fernando?
Pep loves midfielders and to have any chance Saturday we need to keep the ball away from midfield.
There is a very good qote from Lars Lagerbäck, when he got sacked as coach for Sweden. He was a pundit in Swedish television and was commenting a Barcelona game in the CL. The anchor asked him
-"Were you never tempted to play fun football like Barcelona?"
-"No...You have to understand that if you want to play like Barcelona and win, you have to have better players than your opponents in every single position, or you will be found out. You have to adapt to your player material. Loosing isn't fun"
City has a very good team. And the sum of all parts is far superior to Everton. But that is not enough for Pep's philosophy to work.
Probably the wrong place to post this but.....
Did I just hear Annabelle Tiffin say Everton's teenagers show Manchester City's highly paid stars how to do it? If it had been Manchester United 0 Liverpool 4 there would be no mention of the worlds most expensive player etc etc
Old 'Spade Face' has had a dig in the past. :-)
Lancet Fluke
Well-Known Member
Good post. I was going to come on here and give my two pennies worth but ended up thinking it was going to end up being soooo long and I just couldn't be bothered. Also I knew most people wouldn't have bothered reading it anyway. You've covered a fair few of the things I would have said and you've put it much better than I ever would, I certainly wouldn't have been up to using the word "opprobrium". :) The thing that worries me is how much of our defensive problems look a problem with the system than the personnel. Too many men thrown forward, no protection for the defenders who are often high up the pitch with loads of space in behind them. I get the feeling we could keep throwing money at new defenders forever but if they're still going to be horribly exposed by our inability (or is it a lack of inclination) to properly deal with teams who set up like Everton did then the same thing will just keep on happening, just with a different 40 or 50 million quid centre half looking the fool. After our first Prem title, Mancini had the problem of most opponents parking the bus, he came in for a lot of flack on here for still playing holding midfielders and still keeping us fairly rigid and well organised at the back. I think we are now seeing why he did that because actually just throwing everyone forward doesn't necessarily increase the chances of you scoring against a parked bus team but it does leave you much more vulnerable to the counter attack. In matches like yesterday's, you're often knackered if you concede the first goal but we do it so often in those circumstances. It makes some sense to think, don't get carried away, no need to over-commit, don't concede, we will have lots of possession around their box and all we need is one break and we've won. As it is we leave ourselves in situations where we need to score 2, 3, 4 goals against a parked bus which is usually nigh on impossible. Pellegrini was the same and I always saw it as either a lack of respect for the opposition and their tactics or just a horrendous stubbornness. Maybe I'm being unfair, it's probably a lot more complicated than that.You're right, but only up to a point in my book. Yesterday was something of a watershed moment for me. Against Chelsea we were the better team and should have won, and even at Klanfield we could have clawed our way back in, but yesterday had a feel of inevitably about it after no more than about 10 minutes. Defensively it was an even bigger shambles than Leicester and on that score the stats are racking up and telling a story. 9 wins from our last 22 games in all competitions. Going 1-0 down in 14 of those 22 games (8 times inside the first 15 minutes). Conceding 13 goals from the last 21 shots on target against us. Conceding to the opposition's first shot on target in 7 of the last 11 matches. There's only so much opprobrium you can heap on the players. They are all one year older than last season, not 10. We were poor defensively under Pellegrini, but what I've seen at the back this season has frequently been even worse. Yes, they're learning a new system (although increasingly I'm finding hard to actually decipher what that is), yes, it takes time, but - and perhaps because I've had far less previous exposure to Pep than you - I'm still surprised by the degree of faith on here in his preferred "system" and the general confidence, bordering on unswerving belief, that he will be able to make it work satisfactorily in this league, where everyone parks the bus, where everyone has a big, powerful lummox up front to relieve the pressure, and where everyone works like navvies against us. Bottom line though, Pep is the coach, and by general consensus the best in the business, and yet 30 odd games into the season our defence is all too frequently an absolute shambles and, crucially, showing precious little sign of improvement.
Whose fault is it that we started the season with 4 full backs well into their 30's, and with just 3 centre halves (and one of them the broken wreck that is Vincent Kompany), and with just 2 recognised strikers (and one of those a barely tested 19 year old Nigerian kid), and who decided that swapping a generally excellent and physically imposing keeper for arguably the most unconvincing shot stopper we've had at the club since Martyn Margetson was a good idea? I'm not saying it's all on Pep, indeed like you I believe it's 70% due to inheriting an ageing squad that can't do all the things he wants, but he has to cop some of the blame for what's going on. He spent £150m in the summer and, via Txixi, has been in de facto control of the comings and goings for over a year now. The players he did bring in were clearly purchased with a view to playing a certain way (including Bravo), but how are we to assess the judgement behind those purchases when 15 games into the season, the manager expresses surprise that everyone simply parks the bus against us, rendering our diddyman attacking assets neutral at a stroke, and then bypasses our press by the expedient means of lumping it over the top, where our comfortable in possession, but none too imposing physically and frequently exposed, centre halves find themselves getting out-jumped, outpaced and out muscled on a fairly regular basis. Most Blues could have told him that was going to happen, and indeed I relayed my fears to you in the summer about the prospect of the majority of teams in the league setting up against us like Celtic did in successive seasons against Barca (albeit that Vilanova was in charge for the second round I think, although they were still playing the Barca "way") in the Chimps League, beating them at Parkhead in precisely the way Everton did us yesterday, and only going down 2-1 and 1-0 to very late goals in 2 of the other fixtures. How could that have come as a surprise to him, and particularly to Txixi, who has been watching Premier League football non-stop for the last 2 and a half years?
Personally I think we're in relatively deep lumber at the moment and can't afford to carry on getting walloped in the fashion we did yesterday, when the players looked rudderless, and Pep shell shocked. He needs to buy a centre half, a left back, a defensive midfield powerhouse and a physically imposing striker in this window, if we are to have any real prospect of avoiding frequent repetitions of the events at Woodison and finishing 6th in a 6th horse race, and for his own sake if no-one else's Bravo has to be dropped. I don't doubt there will be accusations (not from you) of my being led by the media, but I hate the idea of fixed systems in this league, because they're only ever viable until someone figures out the antidote. You have to be able to play in a variety of ways and right now we just don't seem able to. We're great when the opposition tries to take the game to us and leaves oceans of space for KDB and Spanish Dave to have fun in, but when they set out to frustrate then the outcome is fairly predictable. Arsenal play decent football, not dissimilar to us you might argue, but how many times have they dug out last gasp victories this season by throwing the ball over to that big fucker Giroud? 4? 5? 6? City by contrast haven't scored a single late winner, unless you count the own goal against Sunderland on the opening day. That's how easily thwarted we are, and that shouldn't be the case when you've got players like Aguero, Silva, Ya Ya, KDB and the unfortunately now injured Gundogan at your disposal. I make no long term prediction and indeed no real comment on Pep (adverse or positive) at this stage, as the man has to be given a chance in this ultra competitive league, and there have been enough encouraging signs going forward to suggest he will get it right. Based on what I've seen this season so far overall however, I'd say that the successful implementation of Plan Pep is going to be far harder than anyone first thought, and thus far (defensively at least) it isn't just the players who've been below par
Blumers Bloomers
Well-Known Member
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- Messages
- 7,259
Good post. However, that does not change the fact that we got this Bravo:
rather than the one that actually makes saves.
That's got nothing to do with the way Pep implements his style and philosophy. And I could pull out plenty of clips of Joe Hart mistakes but that's not what we're talking about. The system has already gone wrong in three key areas before the ball gets to Bravo.
Fed up of seeing that gormless look when we've conceded!
uwe rosler 28
Well-Known Member
Some players just are not good enough for us and peps system and style out are bravo doesn't make saves! Clichy cant pass zabba to old for midfield sterling a nervous wreck and I'm not sure he will ever be good enough inhenacho not good enough we either need to change shape or style to pep has his players! Only sagna can come out of yesterday with any credit!
PannickAtTheDisco
Well-Known Member
I think yesterday may be the final straw for Pep. I think after Leicester he agreed to compromise to a system the players felt more comfortable with because they weren't getting his preferred style quick enough. Now they've given up and thrown in the towel on their terms I think he will politely tell some of them to go fuck themselves, and focus on doing his thing with the few players he wants to keep next season.
Old 'Spade Face' has had a dig in the past. :-)
Was that an accidental pun?
OB1
Well-Known Member
There's no doubt that they're good buys.
But it seems Sane and Sterling both favour the right. If Silva or De Bruyne are used wide, they're both more effective on the right and Navas can only play on the right.
We have signed good players but yesterday we had £60 million of right wingers on the bench. No left sided attacker, no centre back and Delph and a kid to cover a midfield with just YaYa and a washed right back in it.
Sane is left footed. Pep had him purchased to play (primarily) on the left. He may have been used as an inverted (right) winger at his last club but he's a kid who can learn to play on his natural side.
IcriedwhenTueartleft
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- Joined
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You're right, but only up to a point in my book. Yesterday was something of a watershed moment for me. Against Chelsea we were the better team and should have won, and even at Klanfield we could have clawed our way back in, but yesterday had a feel of inevitably about it after no more than about 10 minutes. Defensively it was an even bigger shambles than Leicester and on that score the stats are racking up and telling a story. 9 wins from our last 22 games in all competitions. Going 1-0 down in 14 of those 22 games (8 times inside the first 15 minutes). Conceding 13 goals from the last 21 shots on target against us. Conceding to the opposition's first shot on target in 7 of the last 11 matches. There's only so much opprobrium you can heap on the players. They are all one year older than last season, not 10. We were poor defensively under Pellegrini, but what I've seen at the back this season has frequently been even worse. Yes, they're learning a new system (although increasingly I'm finding hard to actually decipher what that is), yes, it takes time, but - and perhaps because I've had far less previous exposure to Pep than you - I'm still surprised by the degree of faith on here in his preferred "system" and the general confidence, bordering on unswerving belief, that he will be able to make it work satisfactorily in this league, where everyone parks the bus, where everyone has a big, powerful lummox up front to relieve the pressure, and where everyone works like navvies against us. Bottom line though, Pep is the coach, and by general consensus the best in the business, and yet 30 odd games into the season our defence is all too frequently an absolute shambles and, crucially, showing precious little sign of improvement.
Whose fault is it that we started the season with 4 full backs well into their 30's, and with just 3 centre halves (and one of them the broken wreck that is Vincent Kompany), and with just 2 recognised strikers (and one of those a barely tested 19 year old Nigerian kid), and who decided that swapping a generally excellent and physically imposing keeper for arguably the most unconvincing shot stopper we've had at the club since Martyn Margetson was a good idea? I'm not saying it's all on Pep, indeed like you I believe it's 70% due to inheriting an ageing squad that can't do all the things he wants, but he has to cop some of the blame for what's going on. He spent £150m in the summer and, via Txixi, has been in de facto control of the comings and goings for over a year now. The players he did bring in were clearly purchased with a view to playing a certain way (including Bravo), but how are we to assess the judgement behind those purchases when 15 games into the season, the manager expresses surprise that everyone simply parks the bus against us, rendering our diddyman attacking assets neutral at a stroke, and then bypasses our press by the expedient means of lumping it over the top, where our comfortable in possession, but none too imposing physically and frequently exposed, centre halves find themselves getting out-jumped, outpaced and out muscled on a fairly regular basis. Most Blues could have told him that was going to happen, and indeed I relayed my fears to you in the summer about the prospect of the majority of teams in the league setting up against us like Celtic did in successive seasons against Barca (albeit that Vilanova was in charge for the second round I think, although they were still playing the Barca "way") in the Chimps League, beating them at Parkhead in precisely the way Everton did us yesterday, and only going down 2-1 and 1-0 to very late goals in 2 of the other fixtures. How could that have come as a surprise to him, and particularly to Txixi, who has been watching Premier League football non-stop for the last 2 and a half years?
Personally I think we're in relatively deep lumber at the moment and can't afford to carry on getting walloped in the fashion we did yesterday, when the players looked rudderless, and Pep shell shocked. He needs to buy a centre half, a left back, a defensive midfield powerhouse and a physically imposing striker in this window, if we are to have any real prospect of avoiding frequent repetitions of the events at Woodison and finishing 6th in a 6th horse race, and for his own sake if no-one else's Bravo has to be dropped. I don't doubt there will be accusations (not from you) of my being led by the media, but I hate the idea of fixed systems in this league, because they're only ever viable until someone figures out the antidote. You have to be able to play in a variety of ways and right now we just don't seem able to. We're great when the opposition tries to take the game to us and leaves oceans of space for KDB and Spanish Dave to have fun in, but when they set out to frustrate then the outcome is fairly predictable. Arsenal play decent football, not dissimilar to us you might argue, but how many times have they dug out last gasp victories this season by throwing the ball over to that big fucker Giroud? 4? 5? 6? City by contrast haven't scored a single late winner, unless you count the own goal against Sunderland on the opening day. That's how easily thwarted we are, and that shouldn't be the case when you've got players like Aguero, Silva, Ya Ya, KDB and the unfortunately now injured Gundogan at your disposal. I make no long term prediction and indeed no real comment on Pep (adverse or positive) at this stage, as the man has to be given a chance in this ultra competitive league, and there have been enough encouraging signs going forward to suggest he will get it right. Based on what I've seen this season so far overall however, I'd say that the successful implementation of Plan Pep is going to be far harder than anyone first thought, and thus far (defensively at least) it isn't just the players who've been below par
Very well said and very fair comment. Of course, we all hope that things will pick up and that the guys in charge know what they are doing.
OB1
Well-Known Member
You're right, but only up to a point in my book. Yesterday was something of a watershed moment for me. Against Chelsea we were the better team and should have won, and even at Klanfield we could have clawed our way back in, but yesterday had a feel of inevitably about it after no more than about 10 minutes. Defensively it was an even bigger shambles than Leicester and on that score the stats are racking up and telling a story. 9 wins from our last 22 games in all competitions. Going 1-0 down in 14 of those 22 games (8 times inside the first 15 minutes). Conceding 13 goals from the last 21 shots on target against us. Conceding to the opposition's first shot on target in 7 of the last 11 matches. There's only so much opprobrium you can heap on the players. They are all one year older than last season, not 10. We were poor defensively under Pellegrini, but what I've seen at the back this season has frequently been even worse. Yes, they're learning a new system (although increasingly I'm finding hard to actually decipher what that is), yes, it takes time, but - and perhaps because I've had far less previous exposure to Pep than you - I'm still surprised by the degree of faith on here in his preferred "system" and the general confidence, bordering on unswerving belief, that he will be able to make it work satisfactorily in this league, where everyone parks the bus, where everyone has a big, powerful lummox up front to relieve the pressure, and where everyone works like navvies against us. Bottom line though, Pep is the coach, and by general consensus the best in the business, and yet 30 odd games into the season our defence is all too frequently an absolute shambles and, crucially, showing precious little sign of improvement.
Whose fault is it that we started the season with 4 full backs well into their 30's, and with just 3 centre halves (and one of them the broken wreck that is Vincent Kompany), and with just 2 recognised strikers (and one of those a barely tested 19 year old Nigerian kid), and who decided that swapping a generally excellent and physically imposing keeper for arguably the most unconvincing shot stopper we've had at the club since Martyn Margetson was a good idea? I'm not saying it's all on Pep, indeed like you I believe it's 70% due to inheriting an ageing squad that can't do all the things he wants, but he has to cop some of the blame for what's going on. He spent £150m in the summer and, via Txixi, has been in de facto control of the comings and goings for over a year now. The players he did bring in were clearly purchased with a view to playing a certain way (including Bravo), but how are we to assess the judgement behind those purchases when 15 games into the season, the manager expresses surprise that everyone simply parks the bus against us, rendering our diddyman attacking assets neutral at a stroke, and then bypasses our press by the expedient means of lumping it over the top, where our comfortable in possession, but none too imposing physically and frequently exposed, centre halves find themselves getting out-jumped, outpaced and out muscled on a fairly regular basis. Most Blues could have told him that was going to happen, and indeed I relayed my fears to you in the summer about the prospect of the majority of teams in the league setting up against us like Celtic did in successive seasons against Barca (albeit that Vilanova was in charge for the second round I think, although they were still playing the Barca "way") in the Chimps League, beating them at Parkhead in precisely the way Everton did us yesterday, and only going down 2-1 and 1-0 to very late goals in 2 of the other fixtures. How could that have come as a surprise to him, and particularly to Txixi, who has been watching Premier League football non-stop for the last 2 and a half years?
Personally I think we're in relatively deep lumber at the moment and can't afford to carry on getting walloped in the fashion we did yesterday, when the players looked rudderless, and Pep shell shocked. He needs to buy a centre half, a left back, a defensive midfield powerhouse and a physically imposing striker in this window, if we are to have any real prospect of avoiding frequent repetitions of the events at Woodison and finishing 6th in a 6th horse race, and for his own sake if no-one else's Bravo has to be dropped. I don't doubt there will be accusations (not from you) of my being led by the media, but I hate the idea of fixed systems in this league, because they're only ever viable until someone figures out the antidote. You have to be able to play in a variety of ways and right now we just don't seem able to. We're great when the opposition tries to take the game to us and leaves oceans of space for KDB and Spanish Dave to have fun in, but when they set out to frustrate then the outcome is fairly predictable. Arsenal play decent football, not dissimilar to us you might argue, but how many times have they dug out last gasp victories this season by throwing the ball over to that big fucker Giroud? 4? 5? 6? City by contrast haven't scored a single late winner, unless you count the own goal against Sunderland on the opening day. That's how easily thwarted we are, and that shouldn't be the case when you've got players like Aguero, Silva, Ya Ya, KDB and the unfortunately now injured Gundogan at your disposal. I make no long term prediction and indeed no real comment on Pep (adverse or positive) at this stage, as the man has to be given a chance in this ultra competitive league, and there have been enough encouraging signs going forward to suggest he will get it right. Based on what I've seen this season so far overall however, I'd say that the successful implementation of Plan Pep is going to be far harder than anyone first thought, and thus far (defensively at least) it isn't just the players who've been below par
Really not got time to give a long answer.
I'm not going to excuse Pep for the mistakes he has and surely will make. I don't doubt though he would agree that you need to play in a variety of ways; albeit following a basic philosophy. What Pep is likely to tell you, imo, because he has done in his pressers, is that the team lacks many of the physical attributes to do so. Consequently, he can't really hoof it up to a lummox in the closing stages (unless he throws a CB forward, which he might if VK was fit) so he rather finds himself stuck in many ways with having to play the way he and the club espouses. That is not to say we couldn't play a game that would involve us having less possession but I'm not sure that is the answer.
I'm not quite as unconvinced that dropping the defensive line back a bit would be a good idea but I favour sticking as closely as possible to trying to get the players to simply concentrate on not making errors. I'm not ready to call for an abandonment of the idea that dominating the ball cannot be a route to success in England. I do think we need personnel changes though to succeed, regardless of our style (one reason why I say it's the players) . You''ll be delighted to know that I want a few big fast fuckers in the team; the problem is they need the touch and technique of Xavi.
Was that an accidental pun?
Yep!