“The work of God”?

[citizen_maine]

You still do, you just won’t be tempted to sin.

So I'll have no free will?

 

[blueish swede]

Haha, well a unicorn isn’t claiming to be the creator of the universe and the standard of morality.

If you don’t believe there is a creator then that means human consciousness is the standard of morality and the universe is meaningless, formed from a random occurrence.

That’s both a scientific and a philosophical stance.

Being an agnostic is actually what you describe, in that it’s a lack of belief.

This is another pseudo-argument that the religious trot out without having any real grasp of the facts.

Morality evolved in humans before the development of the Abrahamic religions and cannot, therefore, be founded in the Abrahamic god. It is evidenced in religions that are older and it is also present in societies that have been completely isolated from the Abrahamic religions - again proof of another source for morality than Yahweh/Allah/God.

In all likelihood morality evolved before the developmet of any religion and is more likely to be one of the driving forces for religion being invented (along with the "where did we come from" question).

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

You think being a Christian is “horrific”?

I think Christianity as a whole has been fairly horrific.

I think anyone in the modern day who chooses to believe in it despite all the rational thought to the contrary is merely facilitating and condoning the likes of Salafism as if you can believe your book the way you choose, why can't they believe theirs as feelings, indoctrination and spirituality are more important than facts, then innocent men, women and children from our own city end up blown up. Then again, 25 odd years ago it was the IRA trying the same trick.

But as you can believe in yours despite having no basis to it and all the atrocities perpetrated over 2,000 years, they can throw it right back at you.

Or we can move to rational discourse and accept people's feelings and self-comfort come second to cold hard truths and facts and put an end to this distasteful episode. If we can't as a species deal in facts and stop the parental poisoning of future generations then we will create our own abyss. That's where we are heading though.

 

[vmsuhail]

Ban appears to be engaging the nay-seers and treading water nicely considering his short tenure as a Born Again Christian. Maybe that's because he's well read and educated on the nuances of hearty debate, being an affiliate paid up member of our political forum. So why does he continue to debate with folk who think his stance is reprehensible to any or all modern day thinking, when he could simply go and read a nice book or go for a walk enjoying his new found religion to himself without fear of hindrance. And then it got me thinking about Hitchens and how he was so convinced there wasn't a god that it became a major preoccupation of his to fight theocracy head on instead of reading a nice book or going for a walk.

Actually here is Christopher answering that very point eloquently enough from an audience member. Why do we all bother to argue the toss when we have entrenched our battle lines unto sand. Is it in the forlorn hope of changing a given mindset, or it it just to pacify ourselves because we believe so strongly in our own divine right-eousness. Who is right and who is wrong and the only way to find out is by the continuance of hearty debate, except the Christians are lacking in the manpower dept at the moment to field a full side. All that may change when vmshail wakes up.

I'm silently reading along and curious to see how he answers all those questions he asked me before. We are miles apart in faith, yet I feel I've got some company.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

Humans have free will and with free will there is consequences. If Christ intervened with sex offenders in the church then the free will is removed. They will be dealt with though, make no mistake about that.

Bit of a tricky one this, as we would have to ascertain what god decrees as pedophilia or even borderline pedophilia, as it's different rules throughout the world for different countries. Angola it's twelve, Japan it's 13 and Nigeria a mere 11. Some countries just say that they just have to be simply married and so good grief to that one, so how will any deity tackle the issue of punishment. I haven't read his full book, but has he actually mentioned what age he will punish peado's when they clock out from Earth? And how will he punish them because he cant kill them if they are already dead and anyway he says killing is wrong. Will he just torture them or simply lock them up for an indeterminate length of time?

 

[blueish swede]

So I'll have no free will?

FWINO

 

[Ban-jani]

This is another pseudo-argument that the religious trot out without having any real grasp of the facts.

Morality evolved in humans before the development of the Abrahamic religions and cannot, therefore, be founded in the Abrahamic god. It is evidenced in religions that are older and it is also present in societies that have been completely isolated from the Abrahamic religions - again proof of another source for morality than Yahweh/Allah/God.

In all likelihood morality evolved before the developmet of any religion and is more likely to be one of the driving forces for religion being invented (along with the "where did we come from" question).

On the contrary, this isn’t what is being claimed or is claimed by Christianity.

Nobody believes morality came with Jesus’s birth, I’ve never heard anyone make that argument until you’ve just invented it.

 

[tonea2003]

Evil exists because of free will.

The world is better for us having free will than all of us being robots without choice.

The world is fallen because of how we choose to wield the free will.

i've read some shite on here but this is up there

this world is better because someone can walk up behind someone and hit them with a hammer because they can
you're not right

you are so blinkered by religious dogma that you can only make things fit a religious narrative

 

[Ban-jani]

Bit of a tricky one this, as we would have to ascertain what god decrees as pedophilia or even borderline pedophilia, as it's different rules throughout the world for different countries. Angola it's twelve, Japan it's 13 and Nigeria a mere 11. Some countries just say that they just have to be simply married and so good grief to that one, so how will any deity tackle the issue of punishment. I haven't read his full book, but has he actually mentioned what age he will punish peado's when they clock out from Earth? And how will he punish them because he cant kill them if they are already dead and anyway he says killing is wrong. Will he just torture them or simply lock them up for an indeterminate length of time?

Pre pubescent is probably a line to look for but Christianity also teaches about obeying the law of the land, if the law is considered moral to you, so there is some element of opinion and God will know your thoughts and feelings.

Regarding punishment for noncing, hell is a pretty good place to presume, there are different levels of punishment in hell within Christanity.

 

[blueish swede]

On the contrary, this isn’t what is being claimed or is claimed by Christianity.

Nobody believes morality came with Jesus’s birth, I’ve never heard anyone make that argument until you’ve just invented it.

I'm not making the argument that morality came with Jesus. Morality came before man invented religion, and long before your particular religion. Therefore morality cannot be the product of your religion or your god.