10 | Jack Grealish - 2024/25

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Goater=Legend said:
Feel like he checked out after the treble, the drive to keep pushing isn't there anymore.

Maybe he can enjoy his years at Spurs with Maddison turning up now and again.
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Even those idiots won't take a punt on him if he keeps appearing in the papers week after week, better going Milan with Walker, slower paced game might suit him, and there are some nice Italian beers as well there
 
Mr Grumpy said:
Hmm.
You are implying my response is unfair because you are assuming it is an absolute statement whilst criticizing me by being absolute yourself (all, everybody).

Do i really need to add the obvious caveat: *For the most part, excluding the extreme or unusual ..blah..blah...blah..."

No. "In general" isn't something that needs to be added.


I'm not going to drag this convo of topic any further. I'll stand by my comments which are based on deeply painful personal experiences.
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It's not about being extreme or unusual. You have a personal subjective experience and I respect that but I've been around and worked with many alcoholics and the idea that all of them need abandoning to hit rock bottom apart from a few is also incorrect. More people benefit from support than isolation, if I were to give my own experience of a decent number of people.

It's a bit like footballers I guess. Some people need a kick up the arse. Some people need an arm round them. To presume everybody needs either all the time is a dangerous mindset. I benefited from the "personal responsibility" model because I thought the "illness" model was horseshit. I had a problem because I was being an idiot and didn't stop, and I could have stopped whenever I wanted to, but I fucked it all up and needed someone to tell me how much of a bellend I was being. That was my personality. I met someone in the same rehab group who could not handle this and attempted suicide. They needed to believe that they had an illness like a cancer and that the person they were as an alcoholic is not the "real them" and if they could just exercise this demon then all of the shame and blame they put on themselves could be healed. This is a very valid perspective of substance abuse, people in academia absolutely have evidence to suggest this is the true way that these things affect your neurology. But that's not what I needed to hear. It's correct but that's not what I needed to hear.

People who have worked in rehab tell you two universal truths. Firstly, ever person with a substance problem is totally different and their reasons and rehab is going to be totally different. Second, you can lie to people, you can be nice or nasty or whatever, your entire goal is to cut out the substance abuse and how you get to that point is going to be personal to the addict and it doesn't matter what they have to be told or what they believe because it's a numbers game and if telling them something you don't personally believe helps them kick it then you put your personal shit to one side and tell them. That's just the role.

Two points here. The first is obviously the idea that there's no "usual". "Most" people don't need this or that. And as heartbreaking as this is, when families or friends get involved and lack nuance but have poor solutions then it often causes harm and potentially safety issues.

The second is that Jack Grealish doesn't outwardly appear to be an alcoholic and I've seen a few in my time. I think he has a poor relationship with alcohol to use a euphemism and from what I know of him internally at City, he probably uses it for more than recreation. But he's functioning, he controls it within his boundaries and he's fitter than proper all of us here put together. He's the archetypal "lies a drink" guy and also the archetypal "balloons to 18 stone and is seen falling out of Spanish nightclubs at 45" guy. That's something a little different though, having a bad relationship with alcohol and using it as a coping mechanism doesn't make you an alcoholic. It makes you fucked up but not necessarily an alcoholic. An alcoholic is someone who wants to stop but can't. And I can't answer where he is on that journey or whether he's even on that road or just a bit daft and likes socialising without knowing his limits. There's so much diversity and nuance in this topic, it's not as straightforward as he looks a little worse for wear on an accepted holiday day so he must be a massive pisshead who is killing his career. All the people that half of this forum admire and idoloise from their youth got pissed out of their brains almost every night. Yet they wouldn't call that a personal moral failing.

Again, this is complicated. I didn't mean to have a pop mate, I really didn't, it's not personal.
 
Damocles said:
It's not about being extreme or unusual. You have a personal subjective experience and I respect that but I've been around and worked with many alcoholics and the idea that all of them need abandoning to hit rock bottom apart from a few is also incorrect. More people benefit from support than isolation, if I were to give my own experience of a decent number of people.

It's a bit like footballers I guess. Some people need a kick up the arse. Some people need an arm round them. To presume everybody needs either all the time is a dangerous mindset. I benefited from the "personal responsibility" model because I thought the "illness" model was horseshit. I had a problem because I was being an idiot and didn't stop, and I could have stopped whenever I wanted to, but I fucked it all up and needed someone to tell me how much of a bellend I was being. That was my personality. I met someone in the same rehab group who could not handle this and attempted suicide. They needed to believe that they had an illness like a cancer and that the person they were as an alcoholic is not the "real them" and if they could just exercise this demon then all of the shame and blame they put on themselves could be healed. This is a very valid perspective of substance abuse, people in academia absolutely have evidence to suggest this is the true way that these things affect your neurology. But that's not what I needed to hear. It's correct but that's not what I needed to hear.

People who have worked in rehab tell you two universal truths. Firstly, ever person with a substance problem is totally different and their reasons and rehab is going to be totally different. Second, you can lie to people, you can be nice or nasty or whatever, your entire goal is to cut out the substance abuse and how you get to that point is going to be personal to the addict and it doesn't matter what they have to be told or what they believe because it's a numbers game and if telling them something you don't personally believe helps them kick it then you put your personal shit to one side and tell them. That's just the role.

Two points here. The first is obviously the idea that there's no "usual". "Most" people don't need this or that. And as heartbreaking as this is, when families or friends get involved and lack nuance but have poor solutions then it often causes harm and potentially safety issues.

The second is that Jack Grealish doesn't outwardly appear to be an alcoholic and I've seen a few in my time. I think he has a poor relationship with alcohol to use a euphemism and from what I know of him internally at City, he probably uses it for more than recreation. But he's functioning, he controls it within his boundaries and he's fitter than proper all of us here put together. He's the archetypal "lies a drink" guy and also the archetypal "balloons to 18 stone and is seen falling out of Spanish nightclubs at 45" guy. That's something a little different though, having a bad relationship with alcohol and using it as a coping mechanism doesn't make you an alcoholic. It makes you fucked up but not necessarily an alcoholic. An alcoholic is someone who wants to stop but can't. And I can't answer where he is on that journey or whether he's even on that road or just a bit daft and likes socialising without knowing his limits. There's so much diversity and nuance in this topic, it's not as straightforward as he looks a little worse for wear on an accepted holiday day so he must be a massive pisshead who is killing his career. All the people that half of this forum admire and idoloise from their youth got pissed out of their brains almost every night. Yet they wouldn't call that a personal moral failing.

Again, this is complicated. I didn't mean to have a pop mate, I really didn't, it's not personal.
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I'd like to say a good post, but i don't want to be applauding your personal tragedies. I'm glad you overcome them.
Experience teaches us much.

My stance comes from seeing and being involved with people close to me suffering from depression, alcoholism, neurosis, etc). All the therapies they went through basically came from the same place: True help can only come from you and yourself. Salvation is yours to earn, not others to give.

I suppose, it is at its heart a question of truth.
Only until you tell yourself the truth, understand it, recognise it and accept it, can one move forwards.

That's the core meaning of my comments regarding "Hitting rock bottom".
Nowhere left to hide. No other outcome possible. All lies stripped away.

Good intentions can enable sufferers to avoid that judgement.

Perhaps there is nuance. Good therapy eases the way to that place, makes it tolerable, gives the victim the tools to make the leap. Those tools work because they are yours and your only. fashioned by you, for you.

I dunno.

My stance is: "the truth shall set you free"
where as others (yours?) is "The truth should set you free".

As you say, perhaps some cannot pay the price that the truth demands. That sounds like eternal damnation (Hell) to me.
 
Mr Grumpy said:
I'd like to say a good post, but i don't want to be applauding your personal tragedies. I'm glad you overcome them.
Experience teaches us much.

My stance comes from seeing and being involved with people close to me suffering from depression, alcoholism, neurosis, etc). All the therapies they went through basically came from the same place: True help can only come from you and yourself. Salvation is yours to earn, not others to give.

I suppose, it is at its heart a question of truth.
Only until you tell yourself the truth, understand it, recognise it and accept it, can one move forwards.

That's the core meaning of my comments regarding "Hitting rock bottom".
Nowhere left to hide. No other outcome possible. All lies stripped away.

Good intentions can enable sufferers to avoid that judgement.

Perhaps there is nuance. Good therapy eases the way to that place, makes it tolerable, gives the victim the tools to make the leap. Those tools work because they are yours and your only. fashioned by you, for you.

I dunno.

My stance is: "the truth shall set you free"
where as others (yours?) is "The truth should set you free".

As you say, perhaps some cannot pay the price that the truth demands. That sounds like eternal damnation (Hell) to me.
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Didn't mean to unload on you mate and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Guess the ghosts of Christmas past are still rattling their chains. Hope you're well.
 
pbueno16 said:
Being a pro athlete isn't quite the same as having lives in your hand though, is it?
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You have a responsibility to your colleagues when you work as part of a team or play a team sport, even if lives aren't at stake.

If someone was having to cover for you because you were often turning up to work drunk, hungover or otherwise in less than perfect condition, then you'd expect someone to say something and you'd risk losing your job.
 
Damocles said:
It's not about being extreme or unusual. You have a personal subjective experience and I respect that but I've been around and worked with many alcoholics and the idea that all of them need abandoning to hit rock bottom apart from a few is also incorrect. More people benefit from support than isolation, if I were to give my own experience of a decent number of people.

It's a bit like footballers I guess. Some people need a kick up the arse. Some people need an arm round them. To presume everybody needs either all the time is a dangerous mindset. I benefited from the "personal responsibility" model because I thought the "illness" model was horseshit. I had a problem because I was being an idiot and didn't stop, and I could have stopped whenever I wanted to, but I fucked it all up and needed someone to tell me how much of a bellend I was being. That was my personality. I met someone in the same rehab group who could not handle this and attempted suicide. They needed to believe that they had an illness like a cancer and that the person they were as an alcoholic is not the "real them" and if they could just exercise this demon then all of the shame and blame they put on themselves could be healed. This is a very valid perspective of substance abuse, people in academia absolutely have evidence to suggest this is the true way that these things affect your neurology. But that's not what I needed to hear. It's correct but that's not what I needed to hear.

People who have worked in rehab tell you two universal truths. Firstly, ever person with a substance problem is totally different and their reasons and rehab is going to be totally different. Second, you can lie to people, you can be nice or nasty or whatever, your entire goal is to cut out the substance abuse and how you get to that point is going to be personal to the addict and it doesn't matter what they have to be told or what they believe because it's a numbers game and if telling them something you don't personally believe helps them kick it then you put your personal shit to one side and tell them. That's just the role.

Two points here. The first is obviously the idea that there's no "usual". "Most" people don't need this or that. And as heartbreaking as this is, when families or friends get involved and lack nuance but have poor solutions then it often causes harm and potentially safety issues.

The second is that Jack Grealish doesn't outwardly appear to be an alcoholic and I've seen a few in my time. I think he has a poor relationship with alcohol to use a euphemism and from what I know of him internally at City, he probably uses it for more than recreation. But he's functioning, he controls it within his boundaries and he's fitter than proper all of us here put together. He's the archetypal "lies a drink" guy and also the archetypal "balloons to 18 stone and is seen falling out of Spanish nightclubs at 45" guy. That's something a little different though, having a bad relationship with alcohol and using it as a coping mechanism doesn't make you an alcoholic. It makes you fucked up but not necessarily an alcoholic. An alcoholic is someone who wants to stop but can't. And I can't answer where he is on that journey or whether he's even on that road or just a bit daft and likes socialising without knowing his limits. There's so much diversity and nuance in this topic, it's not as straightforward as he looks a little worse for wear on an accepted holiday day so he must be a massive pisshead who is killing his career. All the people that half of this forum admire and idoloise from their youth got pissed out of their brains almost every night. Yet they wouldn't call that a personal moral failing.

Again, this is complicated. I didn't mean to have a pop mate, I really didn't, it's not personal.
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It is complicated but I think you've missed one key point. Supporting an addict is only useful if they truly recognise they have a problem and want to tackle it. I know people who realised they had a problem and tackled it before it got too far out of control. Kevin Kennedy is one of those.

But if they refuse to recognise they have a problem, or they do but refuse to take steps to deal with it, then the only option is to let them fall a bit further. They may need to see the practical issues of being skint, losing a job, their partner and families leaving them, losing their home, etc.

And there are some who never really need support or who don't descend into a spiral of drunkenness and poverty. When I was younger we used to have a neighbour who couldn't go a night without going to the pub, having 3 pints then driving home. Even on holiday he'd have to go to the pub every night.

I never thought of him as an alcoholic but he was, albeit a highly functioning one. He had a dependency on alcohol. He was a great bloke, ran a good business and supported his family. But when I described him to a couple of alcohol counsellors they both said that he should be classed as an alcoholic as he patently had a dependency.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
You have a responsibility to your colleagues when you work as part of a team or play a team sport, even if lives aren't at stake.

If someone was having to cover for you because you were often turning up to work drunk, hungover or otherwise in less than perfect condition, then you'd expect someone to say something and you'd risk losing your job.
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It's obvious at this point that the one who has to be responsible for himself isn't holding up his end of the bargain.

This situation has gone on for weeks, if not months. How it's been able to continue to this point is a failure by the squad and its leadership to not hold him accountable and failure by the management to not ban him from first team activities until the behavior improves or the player is gone.

Blame and shame the individual all you want but it doesn't seem to have any bearing on his decision making. At some point though, the people who have the ability to do something need to step up and properly handle this.
 
IrishBlueSince92 said:
On a slightly unrelated point, its strange he's booed at every away ground.
Seems an all round decent bloke

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Of course they are going to say he's a decent bloke seen as he's feeding them full of drink for the night...

I suspect they'd be saying different if Jack didn't but them a single drink.
 
pbueno16 said:
It's obvious at this point that the one who has to be responsible for himself isn't holding up his end of the bargain.

This situation has gone on for weeks, if not months. How it's been able to continue to this point is a failure by the squad and its leadership to not hold him accountable and failure by the management to not ban him from first team activities until the behavior improves or the player is gone.

Blame and shame the individual all you want but it doesn't seem to have any bearing on his decision making. At some point though, the people who have the ability to do something need to step up and properly handle this.
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He will never ever get a sniff at bench periods if all that allegations is true.

The strange things Pep still gives him minutes to play even that Madrid start at home is still the most baffling decisions.

Jack will straight up shipped in January ala Cancelo if Pep hates Jack so much like some people in here speculating, yet it never did.
 
pbueno16 said:
It's funny how everyone is getting wound up over a rotation player.
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He cost £100 million, he's on a shit load of money every week, he's one of the more experienced players in the squad, at this stage of his career he shouldn't be a rotation player, he should be one of the mainstays who we build the team around, I've defended Jack, but his lack of self control and professionalism doesn't sit right with me.
 
Kamaro011 said:
He will never ever get a sniff at bench periods if all that allegations is true.

The strange things Pep still gives him minutes to play even that Madrid start at home is still the most baffling decisions.

Jack will straight up shipped in January ala Cancelo if Pep hates Jack so much like some people in here speculating, yet it never did.
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It's not like this most recent drama is any better or worse than what's been circulated before, so it's not like this will impact his standing much if at all.

The fact Grealish is still here could be down to other clubs not wanting to take on the risk and/or wages, the player is fine running down his contract without playing or Pep genuinely still rates him. Who knows at this point.
 
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