2020 US Elections

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

After that debate I'm convinced Trump doesn't give a fuck if he loses the election because he's going to be awarded it by the Supreme court.

Not that simple. Each state looks after its own process and count. The only thing Trump can do is challenge a result in a specific state and even then he has to challenge it in a way that changes the result. Assuming there is a way to change the count i.e. by removing all mail in ballots as an example then that has to be enough to swing a state to him and then he would still need enough states to win.

Bush was in this scenario and only need to change Florida - they challenged Florida and threw out a couple of thousand ballots that swung the whole thing. Chances are it wont be that close (or he has to do it on a massive scale).

 

[kaz7]

Talking about himself in the third person

Did you see his eyes flash when joe was talking about russia and iran interferring in the election and him not talking to putin about the bounty on american service men , i could see his brain whirling trying to come up with an excuse , but sleepy joe took money from russia...... Joe kills babies....

 

[Bigga]

Character is important, that is my belief too. You cannot divorce policies from character. Policies, beliefs are born out of character. Character tells us who you are and if we know who and what you are, we know what you will do when given the chance. Trump is a classic example of that.

You cannot divorce one from the other, or say policies matter more than characters of the leader or leaders of a party because people instinctively disbelieve it. If you say character doesn’t matter, then are you saying you don’t trust the man who is leading you? If you don’t, why should I, the voter?

Yes the press attack character rather than policy, but then elect someone to lead who is relatively immune from those attacks.

Biden‘s character is under attack, sleepy joe, gaga, and he is doing a lot better than I expected to be honest. The attacks are not impacting because they look absurd. Biden is performing and campaigning effectively and to a wide a base as possible. Attacks on character need some element of truth to work.

Sorry, I've been having other conversations elsewhere, so it's taken a while to get back here.

I'm actually waiting dialogue with Dr Cornel West since a question I asked has garnered some interest. But I digress...

Whilst what you say can be true about character, this is not always the case. We have seen multiples versions of which has your opinion bypassed. two, as I've mentioned in Corbyn and Sanders; both viewed to be ill dressed and dour in personality. Their policies, however, were polar opposite and yet it was personality that was mainly used to defeat them. I trusted in both their visions.

Essentially, two confidence tricksters have made their way to lead their countries in the US and UK.

Are you still of the mind to say character matters more...?

In Biden, himself, there is the issue of him being seen as the 'US grandpa', that face value smiling man whose shadows contains work that is given a pass! You can see the shadows contain war and crime policies and, yet, it is ignored. I think the moderator, Kristen Welker, did what no other moderator did and pinned Biden on subject matter he had to answer for. She did the same for both.

That was journalistic and the rest before her, I think, were a nonsense personally.

If 'character' is the metric, then I think Biden is extremely lucky that he was not up against someone less divisive like Kasich or that these debates did not happen in the summer.

 

[Father Paul]

Character is important, that is my belief too. You cannot divorce policies from character. Policies, beliefs are born out of character. Character tells us who you are and if we know who and what you are, we know what you will do when given the chance. Trump is a classic example of that.

You cannot divorce one from the other, or say policies matter more than characters of the leader or leaders of a party because people instinctively disbelieve it. If you say character doesn’t matter, then are you saying you don’t trust the man who is leading you? If you don’t, why should I, the voter?

Yes the press attack character rather than policy, but then elect someone to lead who is relatively immune from those attacks.

Biden‘s character is under attack, sleepy joe, gaga, and he is doing a lot better than I expected to be honest. The attacks are not impacting because they look absurd. Biden is performing and campaigning effectively and to a wide a base as possible. Attacks on character need some element of truth to work.

Not sure all the attacks are absurd. How do you explain the fact that Hunter Biden received 3.5 million dollars from one of the shadiest ladies in Russia?
I am sure there will be many more allegations proven as true in the weeks and months ahead. Journalists in this part of the world turn a blind eye to anything positive about Trump or negative about his political rivals. The failure to attach any importance to the very serious allegations made by Tara Reade regarding Joe Biden earlier in the year is a case in point.

 

[Bigga]

So you think the policies are all the same neolib policies, but neolibs are pushing character over policy, so you don't want even to choose between the ice cream character or the cyanide character.

Silly logic, but if at the end the end result is the suffering of the working class (such is the tendency of neoliberal policies), does it matter which one delivers the policy?

One only delivers the suffering quicker.

 

[domalino]

Not sure all the attacks are absurd. How do you explain the fact that Hunter Biden received 3.5 million dollars from one of the shadiest ladies in Russia?

Easily. It's not a fact.

It's an allegation made by the Senate Republicans for which they produced no evidence, apart from a secret document they won't show anyone. The 2 minority members of the committee both said there was zero evidence tying Biden to $3.5m payment on that document.

The Republicans also sent out zero subpoena's to the company the money was sent to, or any of the employees of that company to make the allegation a fact, backed up by financial records and testimony because they know it's not true.

They didn't send out any subpoenas because they would have confirmed the actual fact, that Hunter Biden is not connected to Rosemont Seneca Thornton, the consulting company who allegedly received the money.

That's why the attacks don't stick.

 

[Bigga]

I love you throwing in neolib in are they a party ?

Yes, in the States the 'far right' in the GOP and in 'centre of far right' in the Dems.

Both deliver wealth to the donor class of 1% because that 1% funds both parties.

 

[Bigga]

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant I agree with you but given the other candidate is Trump, well just vote for sleepy Joe and lobby the progressives in the Democrat party.

In answer to your broader q re how has it come to this. I obviously know as much (probably less) than others but a thought occurred that each person casts their own vote ostensibly for themselves and whilst most people would agree with a better distribution of wealth and fairer social policies, if they see that this will hurt them in their own sphere financial, social tec then they will likely vote to keep the status quo.

Take Trump's rhetoric regarding Biden wanting to wreck the suburbs. In theory of course you want the poor to be looked after but maybe if you are worried that it may be your way of life that has an element of society that is unknown to you and possibly even feared (not necessarily physically) then you will likely vote to keep the status quo.

Life is tough and you work hard to get where you are and if the seed of doubt is there that all your hard work may be of more benefit to someone else ie by higher taxes or whatever then you could be forgiven for resisting. The central tenet of what I am trying to say that it isn't just politics that is broken, more that politics reflects the masses in society.

Agreed.

The years of the wealth gap growing has put the seed of doubt in people's minds.

One may abhor the president's antics and behaviour but, as a couple of our US members have said, their '401ks' are looking very pretty and healthy, right now. Even if these members have their own sense of 'civic duty', can you imagine those that may weighing up the dilemma of wealth over equality...?

 

[Bigga]

Being white and British, I just think it comes down to simple things.

Trump is erratic and panders to the far right. He has shown that the Republicans under his Presidency with McConnell will subvert as much as they can to drive America to the right. China and Russia both have strings of his they pull, and he has zero interest in the big world picture. He is undoing everything he can about the environment, in favour of claims (mostly untrue) about all his mines and 'clean coal', and building pipelines through the Arctic. He also has an absolute disregard for the truth in almost everything, including irrelevant things that are easy to disprove (last week guest on Oprah came up again this week). Oh, and his pro-rich taxcuts are sending the US economy to the brink when the chickens come home to roost, and he's deadset on getting rid of Obamacare without having any replacement st up when he does - that is insane behaviour. He has backed Erdogan, and believes that bullying and abuse is acceptable behaviour in every area, viewing just about any policy in terms of dollars not social value. He's barely produced any ideas of what he is actually planning to do for four years, although it's a safe bet it will involve promotion and enriching of Trump family members. Black Lives Matter = Antifa.

Biden isn't perfect, and he's not the most dynamic. He's not that reforming himself, but has Harris who will want to run in 2024 and Sanders has backed him. He's produced an idea on record of how to address SCOTUS issues. Mostly he has very few of the features I've just listed above.

The careering to the cliffedge on any area (economy, climate, race) has to be slowed in order for it to stop. I think Biden will, and Trump will continue destruction in pursuit of greed.

Let me just add a couple of things here.

The Dems have agreed to these "pro-rich" tax cuts AND have funded the military as requested. None of it challenged. They've also allowed Judge Chen to be fast tracked into the senate, stupidly, without registering dissent on the pick. Well, that was clever.

I think Harris' past will come back at her in 2024. Despite what the media says, she's not as Progressive as they want you to think. Her flip-flop on healthcare and her record on crime will tell you that much.

 

[domalino]

I think Harris' past will come back at her in 2024. Despite what the media says, she's not as Progressive as they want you to think. Her flip-flop on healthcare and her record on crime will tell you that much.

Oh yeah, maybe 2024 will be Bernie's year!