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Firstly, everybody and their mates knows that 'MAGA' is not unique to this administration, so let's drop kick that out the window.

I point out that both, not vilifying one only, both are terrible people that did poorly in education and have lied their way to the top. I'm not sure why this doesn't bother people.

As a Black man, to hear someone LIE about being on civil rights marches irks me. No good can come from that. And then to build upon that a punishment for jailing an underclass for transgressions laid at their door by the previous government is unforgivable. Unless you're in my demographic, you can't understand why that cannot be dismissed.

Black people may vote, but they won't forget what happened there.

And, since, you're not going to understand something with the same parallel for you, it's easy to ignore. And that's just one aspect. An aspect that snowballs into mistrust for what politicians with agendas and that side with corporations over people really want.

You continue to play into the hands of neoliberalism.

Secondly, it's the top of the ticket that talk about 'job creators' needing less taxing, convincing the little people of such a lie and now everyone is on the case of the president when reality bites. Who, at the top of both parties, do not fall into the category of tax relief whilst telling the worker 'sorry, we can't give you enough of your money back to survive COVID!'. And this is whilst both parties agree to send public money to defence contractors to build bombs and blow that money up overseas.

This is why the phrase "not much difference" comes into play.

I ain't shouting down none of what you people have to say, but I will continue to point out my piece. I'm not part of this pathetic cabal and I'm glad.

I will always side with the little person. This election is about changing the figurehead only, but it's the problem underneath that won't get solved for years.

That's solved with fucking off neoliberalists, whether they are Democrat or Republican, to even the US ship.
Can't and indeed don't want to disagree with any of that my friend, perhaps excepting Trump is imo much worse than Biden. I can see how lying about being out and marching and being militant would piss you off. Has he clarified any of that by the way? I really don't know other than the headlines but you can be on a march but also not generally be out and about marching and being militant. I'll take it at face value but thought I'd put a scenario out there [to be shot down in flames:-) ]

The broader point and this is where I am seeking clarification is that "Fucking off the neo liberals" is a goal, an abstract notion, however laudable it may be it is just an idea or an ideal.

What I am interested in is the plan to achieve that goal. As you said it will take years but there has to be some path to take to achieve it, otherwise it's all just fine words and windy rhetoric. tm DrBlueBob.
 
Can't and indeed don't want to disagree with any of that my friend, perhaps excepting Trump is imo much worse than Biden. I can see how lying about being out and marching and being militant would piss you off. Has he clarified any of that by the way? I really don't know other than the headlines but you can be on a march but also not generally be out and about marching and being militant. I'll take it at face value but thought I'd put a scenario out there [to be shot down in flames:-) ]

The broader point and this is where I am seeking clarification is that "Fucking off the neo liberals" is a goal, an abstract notion, however laudable it may be it is just an idea or an ideal.

What I am interested in is the plan to achieve that goal. As you said it will take years but there has to be some path to take to achieve it, otherwise it's all just fine words and windy rhetoric. tm DrBlueBob.
Biden's alleged lie was in 1988 and is widely referenced in the right wing press and by @Bigga as somehow being equivalent to 20,000+ Trump lies since 2017.

That was around the same time as when Trump was calling for the execution of 5 black men in New York even though they were cleared of the charge, because he decided they must be guilty of something.
 
Can't and indeed don't want to disagree with any of that my friend, perhaps excepting Trump is imo much worse than Biden. I can see how lying about being out and marching and being militant would piss you off. Has he clarified any of that by the way? I really don't know other than the headlines but you can be on a march but also not generally be out and about marching and being militant. I'll take it at face value but thought I'd put a scenario out there [to be shot down in flames:-) ]

The broader point and this is where I am seeking clarification is that "Fucking off the neo liberals" is a goal, an abstract notion, however laudable it may be it is just an idea or an ideal.

What I am interested in is the plan to achieve that goal. As you said it will take years but there has to be some path to take to achieve it, otherwise it's all just fine words and windy rhetoric. tm DrBlueBob.
Biden has talked about marching with civil right leaders in the 60s and talked about demanding to see Nelson Mandela whilst he was locked away on Robben Island. Demonstrable lies when he didn't need to go there. It's more 'hot sauce in my handbag' bullshit, not needed for the Black community.

And as for "fucking off neolibs", why not?

We have seen for decades how they turn the other way when industries continue to poison the people, the water and the land, for their bag of silver. Solve these issues and people's need for immediate healthcare lessens as an example.

I cannot understand how people are okay with these politicians in office. It's this very way of thinking that allows incrementalism to take root in people's brains that's "it's okay, we have time!". No plans, no time scales, just wait!

Fuck off the neolibs.
 
Biden has talked about marching with civil right leaders in the 60s and talked about demanding to see Nelson Mandela whilst he was locked away on Robben Island. Demonstrable lies when he didn't need to go there. It's more 'hot sauce in my handbag' bullshit, not needed for the Black community.

And as for "fucking off neolibs", why not?

We have seen for decades how they turn the other way when industries continue to poison the people, the water and the land, for their bag of silver. Solve these issues and people's need for immediate healthcare lessens as an example.

I cannot understand how people are okay with these politicians in office. It's this very way of thinking that allows incrementalism to take root in people's brains that's "it's okay, we have time!". No plans, no time scales, just wait!

Fuck off the neolibs.
It almost sounds like you have a pathological hatred of Neolibs.

Did a nasty Neolib once steal your lunch money?

Joking aside, this election has purely boiled down to a choice between a criminally & morally bankrupt wannabe despot and a nice guy who once told a few porkies many years ago.

And you wouldn't be prepared to hold your nose and vote for the nice guy for the greater good of the Nation?
 
Biden's alleged lie was in 1988 and is widely referenced in the right wing press and by @Bigga as somehow being equivalent to 20,000+ Trump lies since 2017.

That was around the same time as when Trump was calling for the execution of 5 black men in New York even though they were cleared of the charge, because he decided they must be guilty of something.
"Alleged"??


Here's your guy LYING about where he was and what he did as well as his academic levels as said before. Lying for all the time he's been in office. I guess the vid is 'taken out of context', huh? Oh, it doesn't matter, these are your choices!

It's why I don't like to talk to disingenuous pricks with your whataboutism. Repeatedly, I have said I do not like anything #45 has to say on anything, but your continuing lauding of Biden is a disgrace.

The US elected a well known liar and the US are about to vote in another.
 
It almost sounds like you have a pathological hatred of Neolibs.

Did a nasty Neolib once steal your lunch money?

Joking aside, this election has purely boiled down to a choice between a criminally & morally bankrupt wannabe despot and a nice guy who once told a few porkies many years ago.

And you wouldn't be prepared to hold your nose and vote for the nice guy for the greater good of the Nation?
Well, maybe my moral compass won't let me.

One's a fucker, one's a twat.

What can I say?
 
Biden has talked about marching with civil right leaders in the 60s and talked about demanding to see Nelson Mandela whilst he was locked away on Robben Island. Demonstrable lies when he didn't need to go there. It's more 'hot sauce in my handbag' bullshit, not needed for the Black community.

And as for "fucking off neolibs", why not?

We have seen for decades how they turn the other way when industries continue to poison the people, the water and the land, for their bag of silver. Solve these issues and people's need for immediate healthcare lessens as an example.

I cannot understand how people are okay with these politicians in office. It's this very way of thinking that allows incrementalism to take root in people's brains that's "it's okay, we have time!". No plans, no time scales, just wait!

Fuck off the neolibs.
Cheers for the clarification on the first point.

Why not? isn't the right question. Try how? instead and see what ideas are actually implementable. This is not suggesting that they aren't implementable but it isn't going to happen by shouting fuck off.

Who is ok with these people in office? If we were transported to a place in time in the future where it was a better life for most at the expense of less privileges for the few I doubt many would argue that. How to get there?

You keep coming up with nebulous "they", is that me? Or you? You haven't effected change and nor have I but what do you propose rather than railing at the current system. When I was younger I always felt that the pseudo revolutionaries were never going to be effective with the smash the state message because they didn't seem to have anything to replace other than anarchy and I didn't see that working.
 
"Alleged"??


Here's your guy LYING about where he was and what he did as well as his academic levels as said before. Lying for all the time he's been in office. I guess the vid is 'taken out of context', huh? Oh, it doesn't matter, these are your choices!

It's why I don't like to talk to disingenuous pricks with your whataboutism. Repeatedly, I have said I do not like anything #45 has to say on anything, but your continuing lauding of Biden is a disgrace.

The US elected a well known liar and the US are about to vote in another.

I've not lauded him in the slightest.

I recognise he's a flawed character like most people, who has done things he probably regrets over the years including telling the occasional porkie.

I'll ignore the vile abuse. I'm sort of used to it from you. It is kind of amusing saying you don't talk to certain people in a post directed at one of them.
 
Cheers for the clarification on the first point.

Why not? isn't the right question. Try how? instead and see what ideas are actually implementable. This is not suggesting that they aren't implementable but it isn't going to happen by shouting fuck off.

Who is ok with these people in office? If we were transported to a place in time in the future where it was a better life for most at the expense of less privileges for the few I doubt many would argue that. How to get there?

You keep coming up with nebulous "they", is that me? Or you? You haven't effected change and nor have I but what do you propose rather than railing at the current system. When I was younger I always felt that the pseudo revolutionaries were never going to be effective with the smash the state message because they didn't seem to have anything to replace other than anarchy and I didn't see that working.

"Why not?", well for years neither Repubs or Dems have done anything of real effect for the working class. If it wasn't for strikes for better wages, a $15 per hour would never be on the table. The realisation working class people in the States are doing 2-3 jobs to make ends meet, thus never spending time with their kids, has finally hit home. This has not been a neolib concern.

It's taken Progressivism, knocking at the door, to make people listen and why they're getting in, down ballot. There's one example of implementation. Another will be forced through, too; M4A. With the majority of voter supporting it across the parties, it's only the politicians with ties to Big Pharma ignoring and holding back the wish for change.

It's not about 'implementation', it's about having the want to change things and 'implementation' will be found.

"They" are neolib thinkers. I don't know if the cap fits, but you can see it as you want.

And it's never about '"smashing the state" (although I have no qualms about starting a better system), it's about proving to society a system can be applied fairly.
 
"Why not?", well for years neither Repubs or Dems have done anything of real effect for the working class. If it wasn't for strikes for better wages, a $15 per hour would never be on the table. The realisation working class people in the States are doing 2-3 jobs to make ends meet, thus never spending time with their kids, has finally hit home. This has not been a neolib concern.

It's taken Progressivism, knocking at the door, to make people listen and why they're getting in, down ballot. There's one example of implementation. Another will be forced through, too; M4A. With the majority of voter supporting it across the parties, it's only the politicians with ties to Big Pharma ignoring and holding back the wish for change.

It's not about 'implementation', it's about having the want to change things and 'implementation' will be found.

"They" are neolib thinkers. I don't know if the cap fits, but you can see it as you want.

And it's never about '"smashing the state" (although I have no qualms about starting a better system), it's about proving to society a system can be applied fairly.
Thankyou.

I must say I always thought that libs were the middle ground good guys but I guess I am out of touch with the latest nomenclature so I'll join in and say libs are bad, especially the neo ones.

As far as your answer there that's all I have been asking. Genuine policies and actions that have an effect in real terms rather than tub thumping without a plan. Cheers.

I hope that it isn't too hard a sell to raise social standards for the disenfranchised blacks and whites, although it's the ones in power that, as you say, hold all the aces.
 
I still find it hard to understand how Trump stays above 40%.
If that's truly representative of the electorate he has around 100 million supporters of which 60 million will vote for him. How can so many dumb people be in the same country?
It's bizarre.
There’s a lot of single-issue voters still; mainly about abortion and the GOP have positioned themselves as anti-abortion.
There’s also a large swathe of malcontents who have nothing in their lives and simply revel in the opportunity to deny other people freedoms and pleasures. They are so low on the totem pole, the economic impact of Dem vs GOP has no impact on their daily lives.
Finally, a great number of people are indeed, stupid.
For sure, there’s a large overlap in the Venn diagram of those three things, but that’s how you get to the 30-40%.
It’s also worth nothing that religious belief is a highly-correlated factor in all three, but that’s another thread...
 
There’s a lot of single-issue voters still; mainly about abortion and the GOP have positioned themselves as anti-abortion.
There’s also a large swathe of malcontents who have nothing in their lives and simply revel in the opportunity to deny other people freedoms and pleasures. They are so low on the totem pole, the economic impact of Dem vs GOP has no impact on their daily lives.
Finally, a great number of people are indeed, stupid.
For sure, there’s a large overlap in the Venn diagram of those three things, but that’s how you get to the 30-40%.
It’s also worth nothing that religious belief is a highly-correlated factor in all three, but that’s another thread...

I'd add that among white men I know, many consider Democrats "unmanly". As much as they detest Trump -- they know a dickhead when they see/hear one -- voting for "A Dem" is anathema to them, in part because they wonder what their he-man fathers would think were they to pull a blue lever. Having said that, I know a number of conservative white men who voted for President Obama despite disagreeing with his politics because they thought electing a Black man was an important social statement for them and the nation to make. I've actually been shocked at the numbers of friends I have who have said so.

As I've said before, gender bias is far, far and away a more toxic issue than racial bias among the many, many white men I know. But I'm a small subsample FWIW. So if there's connectivity between "liberalism" and "womanly", coming off the ledge is hard for some of them.
 
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There’s a lot of single-issue voters still; mainly about abortion and the GOP have positioned themselves as anti-abortion.
There’s also a large swathe of malcontents who have nothing in their lives and simply revel in the opportunity to deny other people freedoms and pleasures. They are so low on the totem pole, the economic impact of Dem vs GOP has no impact on their daily lives.
Finally, a great number of people are indeed, stupid.
For sure, there’s a large overlap in the Venn diagram of those three things, but that’s how you get to the 30-40%.
It’s also worth nothing that religious belief is a highly-correlated factor in all three, but that’s another thread...
I just don’t understand why “pro life” as oppose to “pro choice” seems to only be political in the US. The rest of the first world moved in from that shite 40 years ago.
 
I'd add that among white men I know, many consider Democrats "unmanly". As much as they detest Trump -- they know a dickhead when they see/hear one -- voting for "A Dem" is anathema to them, in part because they wonder what their he-man fathers would think were they to pull a blue lever. Having said that, I know a number of conservative white men who voted for President Obama despite disagreeing with his politics because they thought electing a Black man was an important social statement for them and the nation to make. I've actually been shocked at the numbers of friends I have who have said so.

As I've said before, gender bias is far, far and away a more toxic issue than racial bias among the many, many white men I know. But I'm a small subsample FWIW. So if there's connectivity between "liberalism" and "womanly", coming off the ledge is hard for some of them.
Why did that put me in mind of John Hurt as Quentin Crisp in The Naked Civil Servant? "Some queers are tough.......and some toughs are queer!"
 
I just don’t understand why “pro life” as oppose to “pro choice” seems to only be political in the US. The rest of the first world moved in from that shite 40 years ago.
Totally agree. The explanation for that is in my points 2 and 3 as well as the supplemental commentary about religious belief. These people need an ‘enemy/ supposed inferior’ who they can feel superior against. Although it’s been easier since 2016, it’s still generally hard(er) for them to do that based on race, so religion gives them the veneer/ excuse for it. As part of the GOPs ‘Southern Strategy’ it also has the added benefit of gaining them a significant number of votes from the black community whose preachers tell them to do the ‘moral thing’. This is probably the greatest example of voting against self-interest there is. Republicans laugh their bollocks off over it.
 
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