24 Hours In Police Custody

[paulchapo]

You're probably thinking of the story that goes viral every few months, Gary Plauché who killed his son's abuser in 1984 and with the help of pychiatrists reports showing he was having a psychotic break and wasn't fully mentally competent at the time, plead guilty in return for a 7 year suspended sentence, 5 years on probation and 3,000 hours community service.

He wasn't found not guilty.

Sometimes there's other fringe cases where a state prosecutor decides not to prosecute (normally for political reasons) but when people who obviously commit crimes go in front of a jury, they get found guilty, because that's a juror's job, and giving a false verdict is a crime.

No it was a different case but I was going to cite that one as well. There was no doubt he was guilty as he shot him as he was being transported by detectives at an airport.

I know that's the letter of the law and the criminal implications of doing so, but juries have, normally in America. Actually this conversation brings to mind the OJ Simpson case. At the time he was a national hero and celebrity in America from his football and acting careers and was found not guilty when it was pretty obvious he'd done the murders.

 

[domalino]

By the way have you picked up a newspaper or watched the news lately?

Perhaps you should spend less time reading the tabloids and look at some actual data?

Crime rates have fallen significantly in this country over the last 30 years and the soft on crime sentencing you're so angry about simply doesn't exist.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Attempted s18 and attempted murder/ s18/ manslaughter/murder, are all more serious and all carry a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. No reason they can’t be charged involving the use of a car if the evidence supports it. The alternative proposition could give rise to absurd consequences.

Isn’t attempted murder the hardest crime to convict?

 

[paulchapo]

Perhaps you should spend less time reading the tabloids and look at some actual data?

Crime rates have fallen significantly in this country over the last 30 years and the soft on crime sentencing you're so angry about simply doesn't exist.

Ahh the wonderful data argument. That's recorded crime and there are thousands of assaults and other crimes that unless the person is seriously injured or dies often never get reported. The victim will often lick their wounds and shrug it off as they know the odds of the perpetrator getting caught are slim. They're also afraid of comebacks if they do report it. I guess you'd call that the criminals own form of vigilante justice'.

Out of interest I did do some research. Sadly crime is increasing everywhere.

https://crimerate.co.uk/

 

[franksinatra]

Isn’t attempted murder the hardest crime to convict?

That makes sense but I would have thought sexual offences due to the arguments over consent.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

That makes sense but I would have thought sexual offences due to the arguments over consent.

It’s probably a similar issue. Can you prove intent vs can you prove whether consensual.

In terms of numbers, I’d expect more sexual offences to be not proven, but unsure whether it would be a lower percentage than attempted murder convictions.

 

[paulchapo]

That makes sense but I would have thought sexual offences due to the arguments over consent.

Two difficult crimes to prove indeed.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Those would rely on proving he intended to kill them, not simply that he intended to ram them off the road (which is what was suggested)

Only one of those offences (attempted murder) requires an intent to kill. In fact all the others, except murder, require the absence of an intent to kill.

 

[domalino]

Only one of those offences (attempted murder) requires an intent to kill. In fact all the others, except murder, require the absence of an intent to kill.

Manslaughter and murder do require a dead body though, so they're not relevant to this case and I'm not sure why you brought them into it.

He could have been charged with GBH, but Causing serious injury by driving already covers physical harm which amounts to grievous bodily harm.

And you'd know better than me but looking at the guidelines this would probably be category 3 low culpability GBH which would give a 2 year sentence which is what he ended up with.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Isn’t attempted murder the hardest crime to convict?

Ceteris paribus, yes.

Unlike murder AM requires the prosecution to prove (so that the jury are sure) the the defendant intended to kill the victim, whereas the mens rea for murder is an intent to cause serious harm (or to kill), which is much easier to prove (as there is a body or serious injury). Given with AM you have to prove an intent to kill when the victim (by definition) isn’t dead, that is very hard to prove so that a jury is sure.

Most AMs resolve by way of a s18 GBH conviction, Either by way of a carve up or conviction. The difference it makes to sentence is minimal because given the nature of the injuries and the general intent (meaning its higher culpability) the sentence will be in the top category for s18, namely in the high teens, and possibly even life. The guilty plea will alm certainly make more of a difference to the sentence than the shift from AM to s18.

The mens rea for murder has been the same (I think) since at least Victorian times and is there for perfectly good public policy reasons. If you intend to cause someone serious harm (GBH) and they die then you should be punished accordingly and the absence of the s18 element would result in too many murder acquittals that would serve to defeat justice.