3-5-2 leaves us badly open to counter attacks....

Damanino said:
We are generally slow and I would like if we could play with more pace. Faster build ups, faster movement, we need to improve all the time as Mancini says and this is an "area" where we can improve a lot.

We have so much quality in the starting line up but with more pace in it we would be a lot better. Even our faster players use their pace not so often.
When we have a good counter option we tend to to play it slower while our opponents try to make a shot with 2-3 passes from it.

Barca, Real, they use their pace a lot, we dont have that much fast players tho. Clichy, Richards, Balotelli, Yaya (in sprint), maybe Nasri and Agüero. This 6 players rarely start a match together. Even if they do we dont rely on their good pace much. don't know why.

Run faster, make faster build ups, cross the ball faster, pass the ball faster, that would be a nightmare for our opponents.

Also it is important in the CL to be faster. Another group stage fiasco cannot happen.

This is a complete myth because upping the pace generally means more mistakes and less time to think. We beat teams because we have clever footballers, the pace of an attack means nothing if you don't choose the correct pass or you don't create space. Look at the Nasri goal against Tottenham, Kyle Walker is twice as quick as Nasri but a clever bit of movement and a stunning pass from Silva and it's in the back of the net. The same with Nasri against Chelsea, a clever little reserve pass from Tevez and Nasri is one on one with Cech.
 
I must admit when we play with three at the back we do look very vulnerable when teams are breaking quickly, it would be a lot better to use it in what we consider the easier games as it showed against Liverpool.
 
backofthenetjl said:
I must admit when we play with three at the back we do look very vulnerable when teams are breaking quickly, it would be a lot better to use it in what we consider the easier games as it showed against Liverpool.

with the proven 4 men backline wasnt we vulnerable against shit teams like QPR and southampton then ?
 
Mancio said:
backofthenetjl said:
I must admit when we play with three at the back we do look very vulnerable when teams are breaking quickly, it would be a lot better to use it in what we consider the easier games as it showed against Liverpool.

with the proven 4 men backline wasnt we vulnerable against shit teams like QPR and southampton then ?
the proven back four of Richards, kompany, lescott and clichy were rock solid all season. The qpr game, and to a lesser degree Southampton, were freak games. The opposition had two attacks and scored twice.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
Rammy Blue said:
Didsbury Dave said:
agreed. But you can't accommodate silva and nasri in the 352. Yet another reason to bin it.

I'm not sure it needs binning yet, it just requires the right personnel. Silva in the hole with Clichy and Micah wide plus a new CB would make it work better for example.

I don't think, as I said above, that playing Silva and Nasri as widemen in a midfield 4 gets the best out of either of them.

The 4-2-3-1 with Yaya has seemed to be our best option, it certainly works at the end of games however that then means one of Carlos or Sergio can't play.

Keeping players happy is going to be tough for Bob this season.
you're right. Binning is too strong a word. But are too many players away from it at the moment; especially in tough games. I like the 4222 personally but it works so much better with Micah and clichy providing penetration on the flanks and silva and nasri drifting infield. It actually worked well with Milner in for nasri too. I accept that doesn't get the best from yaya but I think that matters less with a front four interchanging passes. And it's always there as a plan b.

I like 4-2-2-2 but it does put a lot of emphasis on the defensive side for Yaya and DeJ/Rodwell/Gaz B because Silva and Nasri are often not very disciplined defensively. The formation leaves us just as exposed to counter attack as 3-4-1-2 and just as, if not more, exposed to overloading (by opponents) down the flanks.

I wouldn't want us to move to 3 at the back as our usual starting formation but I think it can become a useful tool in the tactical armoury and that means that you have to go through the pain of trying it in different situations.

Our best defence is to keep the ball: otherwise we will be vulnerable when we pick lots of attack minded players.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
Mancio said:
backofthenetjl said:
I must admit when we play with three at the back we do look very vulnerable when teams are breaking quickly, it would be a lot better to use it in what we consider the easier games as it showed against Liverpool.

with the proven 4 men backline wasnt we vulnerable against shit teams like QPR and southampton then ?
the proven back four of Richards, kompany, lescott and clichy were rock solid all season. The qpr game, and to a lesser degree Southampton, were freak games. The opposition had two attacks and scored twice.
At least those were on the counter-attack, though, which I believe is the point of this thread. We've yet to concede a goal on the counter in the 3-4-1-2 although I'm sure we will to be honest. I simply dispute the notion we've previously not been vulnerable to counters.
 
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/aug/28/football-back-three-manchester-city" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... ester-city</a>


Football has gone back to the back three, but why can be a mystery

A dozen teams in Europe's top five leagues had three at the back at the weekend, but it's hard to see what Roberto Mancini thinks Manchester City get out of this tactic

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James Milner of Manchester City
With a midfield four as functional as James Milner, pictured, Nigel de Jong, Yaya Touré and Aleksandar Kolarov, what do Manchester City and Roberto Mancini get out of playing a back three? Photograph: Matthew Ashton/AMA/Corbis

Everything tactical in football is relative. There are few absolutes; everything has meaning and relevance only in relation to everything else. The question "What's the best formation?" is nonsensical because it depends on so many subsidiary questions: who are my players? How fit are they? How confident are they? How motivated are they? What are they used to doing? What result do we need from this game? Are we home or away? What is the weather like? What is the pitch like? Who are the opposition? How do they play? What shape do they play? How are their form and fitness? Even if a manager can accurately assess all of that, it may still be that after 10 minutes it becomes apparent that he needs to tweak something because of a player, whether on his side or the opponent's, suddenly having a great game or an appalling game.

Yet trends develop. Certain formations become modish. Often, as with the long-standing reliance on 4-4-2 in Britain, it's to do with how football is coached at youth level. Sometimes it's because a successful team makes a particular way of playing popular – 4-4-2, for instance, first came into vogue because of England's success at the 1966 World Cup. And sometimes formations disappear because, in the great game of scissors-paper-stone that football tactics often become, the fashionable way of playing is particularly effective against it.

Three years ago, playing three at the back had all but disappeared. It had died away in the late 50s and 60s as the W-M was superseded by a back four, and re-emerged in the mid-80s, in slightly different forms, with Carlos Bilardo's Argentina, Sepp Piontek's Denmark, Franz Beckenbauer's West Germany and Ciro Blazevic's Dinamo Zagreb. The logic was simple: a libero flanked by two man-markers who picked up the opposing centre-forwards, wing-backs to drive the opposing wide men back and, against a 4-4-2, an extra man in midfield to help control possession (it was this approach, rather than the use of a back three per se, that Johan Cruyff described as being the "death of football"). The problem came as teams stopped playing two centre-forwards. Leave a libero and two markers against one striker and that means one of the markers is redundant (and, as a marker, probably not that adept at stepping into midfield), which in turns means a side will be a player short elsewhere on the pitch.

Yet three at the back has started to make a comeback. It began in Italy, with Udinese and Napoli. At Barcelona, the first and most successful stage of Pep Guardiola's season-long charge backwards through the evolution of tactics was a back three. Then Wigan Athletic started doing it. Now Manchester City have joined in. In fact, in the top divisions of Europe's top five leagues over the weekend, 12 teams used the shape (eight in Italy, two in England, one in Spain, one in France and none in Germany). Three at the back is back.

The difficulty of playing with three at the back against a lone striker has not gone away, of course. But what has emerged over the past few seasons is that there are specific circumstances in which the benefits of the shape outweigh that negative. Most obvious, for teams that sit deep and seek only to defend, having two spare men at the back (particularly if the marking is zonal rather than man-to-man) is actually a major advantage. Perhaps because of the extraordinary control of the ball achieved by Barcelona and Spain, it now seems more acceptable for games – in the minds of the team doing defending if nothing else – to take place only in one half, for one team to sit extremely deep and look to absorb pressure with only the occasional breakaway or set play. Internazionale's performance at the Camp Nou in the second leg of the Champions League semi-final in 2010 opened a new vista of defensive possibility.

That was certainly the logic Bordeaux used away to Paris Saint-Germain on Sunday, holding them to a 0-0 draw with an extremely defensive 3-3-3-1: Carlos Henrique, Ludovic Sané and Michaël Ciani across the back with Henri Saivet and Ludovic Obraniak playing almost alongside the holder Landry Nguemo, so the shape was often a 5-3-1-1. That's three draws in a row for PSG and, as Philippe Auclair pointed out, it's not that teams have found a recipe for upsetting PSG, it's that everything that has been tried against them has unsettled them: Lorient counterattacked, Ajaccio sat back and sprang forward in controlled bursts of pressing; Bordeaux just stayed exceptionally deep.

In Italy, the attraction seems cultural. I discussed the issue in some detail here in February, but essentially there is a cultural urge to pack the centre, which is why two years ago the default formation was 4-3-1-2 with very little width. A back three offers a way of gaining attacking width (see, for example, Stephan Lichtsteiner getting forward to score Juventus's opener against Parma on Saturday) while still being able to retain the number of bodies in the centre that Italian football seems to need to feel comfortable. It was also notable at the weekend that six of the eight sides using a back three were playing each other: Fiorentina against Udinese, Juventus against Parma and Palermo against Napoli (the other two were Bologna using a defensive back three away to Chievo and Siena playing a 3-5-2 against Torino's narrow 4-4-2). It may be that there was some matching of shapes going on, teams adopting a back three to play against a back three.

The third group that may be attracted to a back three is those following the Bielsa protocol. Marcelo Bielsa's philosophy is radical – too radical, sadly, for most players, as Athletic Bilbao seem to be finding out (he may be the greatest theorist in football today, but the practicality of dealing with players who persist in being human undermines his coaching). For him defending is less about marking or reacting to opponents than about pressing to regain possession. He needs to be able to get players high up the field quickly, partly to attack an opponent in possession and partly to offer passing options when possession is regained. That is the logic Barcelona followed last season.

Quite what advantage Manchester City see in using a back three is far from clear. They played with a back three against Chelsea in the Community Shield and then again against Liverpool on Sunday. "We went to it last year a little bit to close games off, but what the manager has tried to work on all pre-season is the ability to be able to go to a back three if we want to, and be more offensive than defensive with it," the assistant manager, David Platt, explained in a piece with the Manchester Evening News after the 3-2 win over Chelsea. "The problem is that when you give the ball away you are more susceptible to a counterattack, and we did that for both goals against Chelsea.

"Robbie [Mancini] wanted to have a go at it this season, and we had discussions about it. Last year we flicked into a three at times, but we did it tactically, such as when we were 2-0 up with 20 minutes to go and someone puts a big striker on, to snuff out the space. Then it was done more from a defensive point of view in the last 15 or 20 minutes when teams were throwing everything, and the kitchen sink, at us. To add that other string to the bow, we had to have a good look at it from more of an offensive point of view, where we would have the wide centre-halves coming out and playing with the ball rather than staying narrow, and we are getting the wing-backs high."

The attacking possibilities were apparent at times in the Community Shield, most notably when the left wing-back Aleksandar Kolarov got forward to cross for Samir Nasri to score City's third. Defensively, City were rather less comfortable. Against Liverpool, the problems were more pronounced (and, of course, although City ended up winning the Community Shield relatively comfortably, they were trailing when Branislav Ivanovic was sent off).

The problem was the classic one of having three central defenders line up against a single central striker. With Raheem Sterling and Fabio Borini both threatening, neither City wing-back could get forward, and that meant Liverpool, with a midfield three plus two full-backs (although both were perhaps more cautious than they needed to be) able to push on in the absence of any City threat from wide, were able to dominate City's midfield two of Yaya Touré and Nigel de Jong plus Nasri dropping back. City in the end were extremely fortunate to take a point.

So why did City use the back three? From what Platt said it would be to make City more like Barça, to drive the game higher up the pitch.

But if that was the aim, then why start with a midfield four as functional as James Milner, De Jong, Touré and Kolarov? That's not a four geared to ball retention. But equally it seems inconceivable that City, facing a Liverpool side that had lost 3-0 to West Brom on the opening day, would have seen the need to go in with additional defensive cover – and the way they started the game certainly wasn't defensive.

The lazy analysis of Mancini is to say that he's over-cautious because he's Italian, a weary stereotyping that's so generalised as to be meaningless. Where Mancini does seem to stay true to the traditions of the Italian game, though, is in his distrust of wingers (which you suspect Adam Johnson's fitful form only intensified). His sides, both at Inter and City, have always been narrow: playing a 3-4-1-2 allows him to have players overlap, as Kolarov did against Chelsea, while, in theory, retaining solidity. The problem comes against teams with genuine width such as that Liverpool demonstrated on Sunday.

But there are wider problems. While it's always useful to have an extra tactical option, it's hard to see how it's possible for City, given personnel, to play a 3-4-3 or 3-4-1-2 without it becoming a broken team: a back three, two wing-backs, a holder (or two) and poor Yaya Touré slogging up and down to connect the back six to the front three. For one thing, that would seem to make it very difficult to fit Nasri and Silva into the same lineup, and for another that would seem to increase the reliance on Touré, which it must be one of the aims of this season to reduce. There's nothing wrong, as such, with being a broken team, but it's a reactive way of playing: surely the richest team in football, a team that could be to this generation what Real Madrid was in the 50s, should be pro-active in approach, should be looking to produce a cohesive style of football that seeks to dominate games?

Even if City's approach is puzzling, though, three at the back has re-established itself. Wigan Athletic's use of it is fascinating, particularly given how, this season, it has often morphed into a back four with Maynor Figueroa falling back in to a more orthodox left-back position at times. With Shaun Maloney dropping deep and Arouna Koné clearly operating behind Franco Di Santo, the system in Saturday's win against Southampton was a base 3-4-2-1 that at times looked like a 3-4-3 and at times like a 4-4-1-1. For Roberto Martínez, the back three seems a way of enhancing flexibility without sacrificing too much solidity: he has a back three and a front one and six players who adjust as required. In that, they're not dissimilar in approach to Napoli and, like Napoli, it's an approach that seems specific to that relatively small group of players. Wigan are unlikely to rotate too much this season.

Every generation feels as though it is living at the end of history.

It's very hard to imagine what will come next. How could there be anything new on football? How can it develop tactically? But evolution isn't necessarily forward. Perhaps there are no great tactical revolutions to come; probably our globalised, perpetually analysed world militates against them. But there is still plenty of life in old ideas, still plenty of ways to reinterpret that with which we are already familiar
 
Mikecini said:
But there are wider problems. While it's always useful to have an extra tactical option, it's hard to see how it's possible for City, given personnel, to play a 3-4-3 or 3-4-1-2 without it becoming a broken team: a back three, two wing-backs, a holder (or two) and poor Yaya Touré slogging up and down to connect the back six to the front three. For one thing, that would seem to make it very difficult to fit Nasri and Silva into the same lineup, and for another that would seem to increase the reliance on Touré, which it must be one of the aims of this season to reduce. There's nothing wrong, as such, with being a broken team, but it's a reactive way of playing: surely the richest team in football, a team that could be to this generation what Real Madrid was in the 50s, should be pro-active in approach, should be looking to produce a cohesive style of football that seeks to dominate games?
I agree with this paragraph.
 
I don't like it because it's easier to defend against.

A big strength of ours last season was our overlapping fullbacks. It directly contributed a lot of goals and indirectly by giving the likes of Yaya, SIlva, Nasri, Kun, Tevez more space in the middle.

With wing backs you simply don't get as many overlaps


It may work better in the CL, eg. Napoli, as it can spring from a 5 at the back to 5-7 going forward but over here 4-2-3-1 works best imo, at least for us.
 
My Grandad's older brother remembers this formation:

-------------------------------------Goalkeeper-----------------------------------

---------------------------------------Fullback-------------------------------------
-------------------------Centre half-----------Centre Half------------------------

---------------------------------Central Midfielder---------------------------------

Winger-----Inside Forward-----Centre Forward-----Inside Forward-----Winger

---------------------------------------Striker---------------------------------------
 

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